3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[walkers2rad]

Old & Slow wrote:
Richheck,

I noticed the plug in a local RV store last week. I need that for my home shore power cord. Guess I'll have to return and buy one.
Floyd

Using that at home will not quite give the same benefit as it does from a gen but rather a possible sense of false security in thinking one can pull more from the outlet than they should. With that said I dont necessarily think those should be sold to the general public. It does make a better connection to the outlet but may move the place where things get hot to inside the outlet box where the potential for fire is greater.

Most houses are wired so that both plugs dont pull power from different circuts between the two outlets in the wall. In a gen they may be on seperate circuts. Sure if you pull your outlet out you may notice that it has two sets of wires to it but one is power coming in and the other is going to another outlet. Sure one could be wired with two different circuts with this in mind from the beginning but not likely. So you would be limited by whatever your outlet is wired with, 14 gauge wire and a 15 amp breaker is going to be just that using this or the adapter you probably allready have. If it is on a 20 amp breaker and you have 12 gauge wire and so on. Pulling 30 amps requires 10 gauge wire minimum... 8 if it is a long distance. So consider the distance from that outlet box to the breaker when trying to pull extra power because too much distance can create a dangerous condition with wires heating up.

The key is knowing what your actual loads are and your limits.

[budracer1]

professor95 wrote:
Worst of the storm went east and west (yes, both) of us. We ended up in the middle and did not get the rain Charlottesville did nor the wind Norfolk experienced. I measured 6" of rain and lost a few tree limbs. The pool is full of acorns and leaves - sure wish I had gotten it covered before Hanna came thru! Power went out about 6:00 pm for an hour and a half then came back on. I had to run the LPG Champ 7,500 for about an hour to get water from the well and keep the fridge and freezer cold. The sun was out and the sky clear just before the sun set.

This is the thingie I made for my ELM3000 several years ago. Both pigtails are parallel at the 30 amp TT outlet. This version has the caps physically tied together with a gear type hose clamp and glue, but that is not necessary. For your genny you would need to leave the caps free or rotate each 90 degrees before clamping. This will distribute the load between two 15 amp standard outlets so overheating of the contact points will not occur. It should work well on your new inverter genny for providing a 30 amp TT outlet. It is not weather resistant and would need to be kept covered with a plastic bag if exposed to rain.

CAUTION: To use this type of device both 120 outlets MUST have the same phase relationship - this WILL NOT work with split circuit outlets.

You guys may have to back track a day or 2 to refresh your memory but would this work on my generator if so professor could you instruct me on how to wire it?
thanks Jason

[Old___Slow]

Richheck,

I noticed the plug in a local RV store last week. I need that for my home shore power cord. Guess I'll have to return and buy one. Also, If I remember correctly you are the one who bought your C46540 for a net cost of $144.00~ Can you give us a heads up?

Floyd

[richheck]

Is this what your looking for ? It has been renamed as a "PM1 MAXIMIZER "

Here is a link PM1 Maximizer

Hope this helps

[professor95]

walkers2rad wrote:
figured the orange adapter was just too good to be true!
Prof, do tell with pics of your creation when the storm gets done with you... but then you might be needing it! Hope for all effected to come out ok. Being fully aware of my loads now kind of indicates that I may be able to get by as is, but then again I am not known for leaving things alone.

Worst of the storm went east and west (yes, both) of us. We ended up in the middle and did not get the rain Charlottesville did nor the wind Norfolk experienced. I measured 6" of rain and lost a few tree limbs. The pool is full of acorns and leaves - sure wish I had gotten it covered before Hanna came thru! Power went out about 6:00 pm for an hour and a half then came back on. I had to run the LPG Champ 7,500 for about an hour to get water from the well and keep the fridge and freezer cold. The sun was out and the sky clear just before the sun set.

This is the thingie I made for my ELM3000 several years ago. Both pigtails are parallel at the 30 amp TT outlet. This version has the caps physically tied together with a gear type hose clamp and glue, but that is not necessary. For your genny you would need to leave the caps free or rotate each 90 degrees before clamping. This will distribute the load between two 15 amp standard outlets so overheating of the contact points will not occur. It should work well on your new inverter genny for providing a 30 amp TT outlet. It is not weather resistant and would need to be kept covered with a plastic bag if exposed to rain.

CAUTION: To use this type of device both 120 outlets MUST have the same phase relationship - this WILL NOT work with split circuit outlets.

[walkers2rad]

Thanks for the notes of appreciation, it took alot more time writing and rewriting all of that to make sense than anything else! Had it not been for a pm of encouragement from somebody I came to respect in reading most of this thread it may have ended with eff em if they dont want to know.

I figured the orange adapter was just too good to be true!
Prof, do tell with pics of your creation when the storm gets done with you... but then you might be needing it! Hope for all effected to come out ok. Being fully aware of my loads now kind of indicates that I may be able to get by as is, but then again I am not known for leaving things alone.

Yes it seems that the numbers on the package are no indication of actual output, that was partially evident in the specs tho. I cant help but wonder what actual proven capability of others is in comparison to claimed.
To answer some questins...
I have absolutly no inkling to rip out my built in and replace it with this nor do I suggest anyone else does. Even if some major problem was to surface with th onan I doubt it. Time will tell on how long this thing goes for... throw away probably more likely than not. If it does see an early demise I will struggle with thoughts that agressive testing played a part. Lets hope not!

Normally I am the type that only runs a gen when absolutly necessary and as a result batteries can take a beating. It is mostly an economics kind of thing along with the noise. To give you an idea I had a 4kw microlite in my previous 01.. to 06 MH and I dont think I broke much more than a hundred hours with it. I didnt care much for the high rpm's and noise, it was just past the edge of being annoying for me. My 06 has about a hundred hours now, the lower rpms make it easier to take so I have used it more.

With this handy I dont have any reason to abuse batteries, the low rpm and better economy may compel me to use it quite alot. I expect at least a hundred hours a year possibly more. So if it lasts four or five years I am sure that there will be better and maybe cheaper out there.
It is exciting the increases in efficiency that comes with this technology, can you imagine using this method of generation on a small efficient diesel engine? I think light loads going up to 8 hours on a gallon of fuel could be possible.
I think onan and the like needs to take the bull by the horns on this with a new line of lighter, quieter and efficient rv gen sets if they can work past the patent hurdles. They seem to be producing some smaller units but for all I know they are just putting their name on on the side of something not too unlike this.
I think honda is missing the boat in not producing a size up from the 2kw that is more convienent than the 3kw. All sales are probably sagging, evident by rebates and special offers. I have never lifted a 3kw but it looks like a two man lift and I generally dont go camping with two men. 🙂

As far as the speed this runs... maybe I could access something to get a photo tach on but for now I can only guess. I think it idles in economy at 1800 rpm or less, 1750 watts seems roughtly 3600rpm which matches the economy off speed I am not sure yet if that is annoying for me. Full output may be 5000 rpm and it would bother me in more ways than one to have it there for long. I think this will spend most of its time running a load between 1 and 1.5kw and it seems easy to live with at those loads in the economy mode.

I didnt think of using my clamp on analog current meter to measure the surge... DOH! Come to think about it I have a snap-on digital advance timing light that gives rpm's maybe we will see how close I am!

I will ask the seller to get me a price on the digital box and have him send me a plugs and air filters in leiw of the rebate for what I allready have.

Ray

[rogerw2]

professor95 wrote:

rogerw2 wrote:
Professor, and All,

I have purchased a Champion C46540 for RV use to power a Dometic 13.5BTU-hr A/C. I had previously borrowed a friends 7.5KW Generac and Man, was that noisy! Being a semi-retired EE, I did my calculations and came to the conclusion that 2KW ...... snip
rogerw

Wow, you ask some really complex questions. Actually, the questions bring to light some problems I really had not noticed.

I need to do some of my own research into this before I respond. Meanwhile, perhaps Bob (TopRudder) and George (Mr Wizard) will also jump in. I do not mean to insinuate the two above are the only guys on this thread who can contribute - obviously there are many others who have similar expertise.

One comment though, just about all of the newer 13.5 and 15K air conditioners using the scroll compressor also have what is commonly refered to as "soft start" technology. This is extremely effective and even allowed me to lock in the compressor on my previous Coleman 15K A/C with voltages as low as 85 VAC with a 1,700 watt mechanical inverter (dynamotor). If your A/C is of a similar design you really do not need to go further.

BTW - welcome to the forum. If you are reading all of the pages, you are definately my new hero!

Thanks for quick reply! And I really do wish to compliment you and others on this forum....very informative and collegial!

I hope I did not imply to anyone that I had any trouble using my C46540 to run my 13.5K A/C..... It runs it very well; as others have said, "like a Champ!"

I did have a little rocky road getting to that point because of
a) my basic unfamiliarity with HVAC, which I have been lately trying to remediate, and,
b) the mud dauber nests that were built onto the fan blade and rotor cage blower during inactivity and before purchasing the genny! (whump! whump! whump!)

The "unfamiliarity" led to an early finding that mysteriously I could cut the air successfully on at the genny switch each time, but not at the thermostat.....turns out I was cutting the air OFF and THEN back ON at the thermostat, not giving the PTCR time to cool for a recycle, hence I would get the full locked rotor current and bog the genny down without re-starting. (When I would go out of the TT and do this at the genny, I was giving the PTCR more time to cool.) Once I studied up a bit and realized that I was causing the issue, no problems at all that I can detect.

Of course, cleaning out the mud-dauber's nests gave me oppty to familiarize myself with my A/C unit (bonding...!) and to insulate various cold tubes with foam insulation and the external surfaces of the cold plenum with insulating sheathing such that it is more efficient now.

But it did get me to thinking that maybe I could improve the "soft start" characteristics with a EPR instead of a PTCR operated start capacitor. Also, I like the timeout feature of the E-Series Supco products since, if a PTVR were to fail "closed" it would tend to burn out the start windings in the compressor motor. I suppose the Supco could also "fail closed" too, but it is presumably much more reliable than the common thermo-mechanical switch.

My unit is only 3yrs old, and my guess is that you are correct that I do not really have to do anything to it for pure startup reasons. (I don't have a Clamp-style Ammeter to prove what the peak startup is....so I am guessing this is so.) However, my curiosity has been aroused as to what voltage a SPP6E and a SPP4E actuates the relay cut-out...and whether folks may be inadvertently really depending on the time-out instead of the potential feature of the product, and the reply from Supco left me still skeptical.

BTW, I am trying to convince myself why I should not go out and buy a second C46540 as a backup, just in case.....

Kudos and thanks!


YHS,
rogerw

[MrWizard]

I added the the suppco 6e to my OLD Dometic A/C unit and it definetly helped, the start situation, when that unit died and i replaced it with a Donated Coleman A/C unit, it did NOT need the suppco to start,

I really should get on the roof and install it & test the difference , but my back has been a major pain all summer, so i have avoided any bending, I absolutely did not have to do. there is enough of that, in the things that can't be avoided, like checking tires, batteries, genny oil changes etc.

[Old___Slow]

My C46540 has no problem to power my 12 year old Coleman 13,500 btu A/C the converter/batt. chg. and a 1000w microwave. When I add the microwave I try to lock in the A/C. The genny did stall once when the A/C cycled. That really upset me as I know not to shut down the Champion with a load. Anyway, the A/C and misc. operate just fine with out the microwave. I will add that my PC and HDTV/monitor are also fine with the use of the Champion. That's what I call 'tried and proven'

Floyd

[professor95]

rogerw2 wrote:
Professor, and All,

I have purchased a Champion C46540 for RV use to power a Dometic 13.5BTU-hr A/C. I had previously borrowed a friends 7.5KW Generac and Man, was that noisy! Being a semi-retired EE, I did my calculations and came to the conclusion that 2KW ...... snip
rogerw

Wow, you ask some really complex questions. Actually, the questions bring to light some problems I really had not noticed.

I need to do some of my own research into this before I respond. Meanwhile, perhaps Bob (TopRudder) and George (Mr Wizard) will also jump in. I do not mean to insinuate the two above are the only guys on this thread who can contribute - obviously there are many others who have similar expertise.

One comment though, just about all of the newer 13.5 and 15K air conditioners using the scroll compressor also have what is commonly refered to as "soft start" technology. This is extremely effective and even allowed me to lock in the compressor on my previous Coleman 15K A/C with voltages as low as 85 VAC with a 1,700 watt mechanical inverter (dynamotor). If your A/C is of a similar design you really do not need to go further.

BTW - welcome to the forum. If you are reading all of the pages, you are definately my new hero!

[professor95]

I too am really pleased to see some new Chinese genny equipment evaluations and appreciate the time and effort Ray has spent sharing everything. Not too many folks would go to the extremes he has to disect, photograph and evaluate components.

Just as a side 🙂 I wondered if you were an Eastcoastsales person at the beginning. Now I see you are just another tinkering old fart like the rest of us. See, we aren't just stuck up CCC guys!

I looked at the outlets on the e-bay web site and noted they do not have the T slot normally associated with 20 amp units. I also found it odd that they did not choose to use a duplex outlet. Anyway, as previously mentioned you will not be able to use the orange duplex to 30 amp unit popular with many users.

I made an adapter similar to the orange unit by wiring two 20 amp caps with pigtails (some call then plugs) into a 4" square metal box with a TT outlet. This reduced the heating that would occur when using a simple dogbone adapter. I can't find the photo on my laptop so I guess I will need to make a new shot of it so you can see what I mean. I would do it now, but we are in the middle of Hanna and the rain/wind are not too conducive for going outdoors.

As far as wattage ratings, it appears that many are advertised way over their continious running load. With the new policy to stop rating small engines in HP and start using torque, it is expected that some may rate their engine in watts rather than HP. This is a good site to bookmark if you want to play with these conversions. Unfortunately, the actual power out of the generator in watts will be much less than the engine rating. One of our 6.5 HP Chonda engines would be rated as 4,850 watts - NOT! (746 x 6.5 = 4,849). So, we are back to "buyer beware" when looking at the numbers on the outside of the box.

[rogerw2]

Professor, and All,

I have purchased a Champion C46540 for RV use to power a Dometic 13.5BTU-hr A/C. I had previously borrowed a friends 7.5KW Generac and Man, was that noisy! Being a semi-retired EE, I did my calculations and came to the conclusion that 2KW would run the A/C excepting for start/rush current. However, all my professional work was with micro-Watts at the semiconductor chip level, and I had not acqainted myself with Rotating AC Machinery since schooldays in the early 1970s. I have spent long hours on the internet brushing up on inductiton motors, generators, etc, etc, leading up to this purchase... Long story short- the Champion met every expectation I had for it, and is much quieter of course than the Generac. This is a well-made machine!

THEN I found this thread.....an amazing compendium of information and distilled experience on the very subject I had been wrestling with! Thank you Prof and All! When I started, I was a little apprehensive that maybe an ELM3000 would have been a better choice....when I got to about page 200 when the C46540 becomes the primo recomendation, I was beaming! I am currently on page 422 and am quite interested in the noise abatement discussion.

I did some freefield noise measurements at 23ft on each side and got 68dbA(front) 67dbA(right) 72dBA(back) 72dBa(left) sides. I took a course in college on industrial noise abatement (sound fields are mathematically similar in important ways to electromagnetic fields, btw) and I find that most ideas I have had turns out to be anticipated and even prototyped in this thread as I read it. Excellent!

I do have a practical question. I would like to improve the starting characteristic of my Dometic 13.5K so that as it ages it does not become a problem for a genny, also so restarts can occur quickly. After study, I am clear on why I want a Electronic Potential Rely product instead of a PTC Relay product to accomplish this. I researched online to find that nearly every RV reference to this situation uses a Supco SPP6E. A product brochure here http://www.supco.com/images/pdfproductsheets/E%20Class%20Prod%20Sheet.pdf specifies 170Volt to 277Volt operation for the SPP6E on the first page and then 90Volt to 277Volt on the second page. I emailed Supco and the reply informed me that the SPP6E is for 240Volt operation, not 120Volt operation, and the brochure has a type problem on this spec. They also disavowed any testing of their product with the Dometic A/C.

This leads me to question whether users of the SPP6E in 120V applications are getting a true EPR functionality or whether the backup timeout feature of this same product is not actually the functionality they are depending on....?

To make matter worse, the Supco catalog http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/2006%20HVAC%20Catalog%20HVAC%20Section%202-51.pdf gives 90Volt to 277Volt for ALL of the E-series products....

Since it matters what voltage the EPR senses and opens at, and the SPP4E is uniformly specified at 90V minimum, has any one used this one?

CAn anyone shed light on my confusion?


YHS,
rogerw

[bobandcat]

I finally read the EBAY auction today for "walkers2rad" inverter genset.

I see the new trick the advertisers are using is to rate the engine HP in watts. The customer will think that this is the electrical output from the generator. The marketing folks get you again!

The 3000 watt advertised unit (2600 watts electrical output per the specs.) is really only a 2250 watt output generator per Ray's testing. I also noticed that they warrant the engine for 3 years but the generator for only 30 days. Thanks for all of the info, Ray.

[tvman44]

Good information "walkers2rad", it helps to know if someone bought a piece of equipment and how well it performs and if the purchaser would do it again. Thanks again. 🙂 Papa Bob

[Old___Slow]

walkers2rad,

From a old head. Perhaps I need to get past Ned in the first reader and inter the world of 'new technology' Inverters seem to be the wave of the future in small gensets. The list price of just a AVR for a Onan is around $300 so perhaps the cost the replace the modual on your new inverter will not exceed this amount. One question. Do you expect long life from your unit? I read often that my Champion is classed as a throw away unit. 200/500 hours, something like that. We have one report of 2000 hours from a champion 196 cc engine. If I remember correctly a AVR was replaced. No report of other repairs from that poster. My thought is for my needs, I will never reach 300 hours. I have a C46540 in the genhouse for back up power and testing of sound lowering ideas. ALSO, it's sitting on ready if the Generac 4000w in my MH ever fails. I already have in mind the replacement method. It will surely be more quiet than my Genenac. Do you foresee using your inverter by placing it in a Factory Genset Compartment in any way?

Floyd

PS. If any one is interested. I now have the use of my left arm and hand. Not 100%. The surgery required the drilling of 3 holes in my elbow to reattaching the tendons, no more gimpy arm.. I will try to be more careful to step OVER all water hoses and also look where I step. I might step in IT.:E