3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

let me try:

lets say you have (4) wires A B C D

with the genny running but nothing plugged in

you measure the voltage on your wires by pairs and write it all down

A&B 120
A&C 120
A&D 240
B&C 0
B&D 120
C&D 120

A is the primary leg of winding (1), B is the secondary leg of winding (1)
C is the primary leg of winding (2), and D is the secondary leg of winding (2)

B&C are the connected center tap, which needs to be separated

to correctly parallel the windings

A&C are tied together, A&C are the (2) primary legs ( same sinewave arc direction )

B&D are tied together B&D are the (2) secondary legs


this gives 120v across the AC to BD connections

A&C becomes your HOT leg

B&D becomes your neutral leg

you won't know which wires are which until you measure them

just write it down by the colors

red to brn is 0, red to yell is 240 etc..

and we can tell you which wire is which leg and which ones are the center tap to be split up so you can rearrange the connections

you will have to open the end cap to change the wires

lets hope the center tap is NOT inside the windings, because there is no way to change that without dis-assembling the generator head

[Kenper]

professor95 wrote:

kenper wrote:
How can I check the output of the wires individually so I can confirm which wires should connect with which?

I have always used a dual trace oscilloscope. But, I realize that not everyone has such a beast sitting around ready to use.

With a dual trace scope the wave form of the A channel and B channel should be identical in period and amplitude. If they are 180 degrees off A channel will be going positive while the B is going negative. A will cancel B if paralleled at this relationship. Both windings must go positive at the same time to add.

Below is an ASCII schematic of the two main windings connected in series.

MW1-nnnnnnnn-.-nnnnnnn-MW2

First set of n's is Main Winding #1, second set is Main Winding #2. The period . is the center tap. This circuit is in series.

Measure from first - on MW1 to . and voltage will be 120 as will . to last - on MW2. From beginning of MW1 to end of MW2 will be 220 to 240 (double one winding)

Break connection at -.- completely. Last - on MW2 should now be connected to MW1 where center tap was.

-n on MW2 should be connected to first -n for MW1.

Measure voltage. If it is zero to around 56 volts reverse the connection points for one set of windings.

If it is 120 or so you are good to go.

You should NOT be able to get a 220 reading at any point once series connection is broken.

In your photo it looks like green yellow is going to the silver screw on the side of the duplex outlet. The green yellow wire is the grounding wire (not neutral) and should go to the green grounding screw. Maybe an illusion as I cannot see all of wires and connections. Be sure to check this.

Professor,
I appreciate the help but I don't understand much of any of this. I don't have a scope, just a simple multi-meter. Is there a simple way to measure from black to white, brown to white, brown to red, etc. ?
It will run the Microwave just not start the A/C. If they were out of phase wouldn't it start smoking or something?
Ps. the yellow/green is connected to the green screw.
Is it possible that I need a 'Hard Start" kit for the AC?

[racefan1965]

Thank you very much MR. Wizard. You and the professor have helped me tremendously and most of the time you don't even know about it.lol I stopped posting on the 3000genset thread because it seemed to go to the LPG side and I have no desire to go that way. Plus most of it goes right over my challenged brain.lol

[MrWizard]

there is a spray can version and fuel tank version

for the champion, (1) can with a full tank 3.5 gallons and run until empty.

OR for heavy build up.

point exhaust away from buildings or any objects

remove spark arrestor from exhaust, remove the breather cover and filter, start engine ( no loads ) allow it to warm up, and then spray directly into carb 'try not to kill the engine', so the spraying is stop & go intermittent, you will get lots of smoke and carbon particles out the exhaust, when the can is 2/3 - 3/4 empty, spray the last into the carb until the engine stalls, let the engine set 30 minutes, then restart, run until exhaust is clean, then run for another 30 minutes,

BTW: use a wire brush and clean the spark arrestor screen before you put it back on the exhaust

I put a can of seafoam in the gas tank every 500 hrs, to try and prevent having to do the heavy clean out, keeps the engine cleaner and running better

[racefan1965]

MrWizard wrote:

lt_eggbeater wrote:
I would be happy with 20 amp continuous, its quite a bit off from that right now though. As for the inverter its an inverter/charger so when the genny is running it passes the power through to the whatever is drawing load and whatever is left over goes to charging the battery bank. We have a heavy duty 25kw whisperwatt and a 10kw kohler also but they are pretty much over kill. So we usually have the care takers run the champion every night through the inverter to run the irrigation pumps(1200 watts) and the egg incubator 300 watts plus various other loads, tv lights etc, whatever is left over out of the 14 amp max draw that we currently have the inverter programmed to ask of the genny is used to help charge or equalize the battery bank. It would be much better if I could get 20 amps out of the genny though. It runs about 10 hours a night on average and somtimes 24 hours a day if its cloudy out. I think it has about 900hrs so far.

has performance always been 'OFF' or has it gotten worse than when new.

at 900hrs and running rich, it would probably benefit from a can OR two, of 'Sea Foam' to remove carbon from the piston head and cylinder

How would a person go about using this seafoam? Is it run in place of fuel? With the fuel?

Thanks,
Rick

[lt_eggbeater]

MrWizard wrote:

lt_eggbeater wrote:
I would be happy with 20 amp continuous, its quite a bit off from that right now though. As for the inverter its an inverter/charger so when the genny is running it passes the power through to the whatever is drawing load and whatever is left over goes to charging the battery bank. We have a heavy duty 25kw whisperwatt and a 10kw kohler also but they are pretty much over kill. So we usually have the care takers run the champion every night through the inverter to run the irrigation pumps(1200 watts) and the egg incubator 300 watts plus various other loads, tv lights etc, whatever is left over out of the 14 amp max draw that we currently have the inverter programmed to ask of the genny is used to help charge or equalize the battery bank. It would be much better if I could get 20 amps out of the genny though. It runs about 10 hours a night on average and somtimes 24 hours a day if its cloudy out. I think it has about 900hrs so far.

has performance always been 'OFF' or has it gotten worse than when new.

at 900hrs and running rich, it would probably benefit from a can OR two, of 'Sea Foam' to remove carbon from the piston head and cylinder

The performance has always been off.

[MrWizard]

lt_eggbeater wrote:
I would be happy with 20 amp continuous, its quite a bit off from that right now though. As for the inverter its an inverter/charger so when the genny is running it passes the power through to the whatever is drawing load and whatever is left over goes to charging the battery bank. We have a heavy duty 25kw whisperwatt and a 10kw kohler also but they are pretty much over kill. So we usually have the care takers run the champion every night through the inverter to run the irrigation pumps(1200 watts) and the egg incubator 300 watts plus various other loads, tv lights etc, whatever is left over out of the 14 amp max draw that we currently have the inverter programmed to ask of the genny is used to help charge or equalize the battery bank. It would be much better if I could get 20 amps out of the genny though. It runs about 10 hours a night on average and somtimes 24 hours a day if its cloudy out. I think it has about 900hrs so far.

has performance always been 'OFF' or has it gotten worse than when new.

at 900hrs and running rich, it would probably benefit from a can OR two, of 'Sea Foam' to remove carbon from the piston head and cylinder

[professor95]

kenper wrote:
How can I check the output of the wires individually so I can confirm which wires should connect with which?

I have always used a dual trace oscilloscope. But, I realize that not everyone has such a beast sitting around ready to use.

With a dual trace scope the wave form of the A channel and B channel should be identical in period and amplitude. If they are 180 degrees off A channel will be going positive while the B is going negative. A will cancel B if paralleled at this relationship. Both windings must go positive at the same time to add.

Below is an ASCII schematic of the two main windings connected in series.

MW1-nnnnnnnn-.-nnnnnnn-MW2

First set of n's is Main Winding #1, second set is Main Winding #2. The period . is the center tap. This circuit is in series.

Measure from first - on MW1 to . and voltage will be 120 as will . to last - on MW2. From beginning of MW1 to end of MW2 will be 220 to 240 (double one winding)

Break connection at -.- completely. Last - on MW2 should now be connected to MW1 where center tap was.

-n on MW2 should be connected to first -n for MW1.

Measure voltage. If it is zero to around 56 volts reverse the connection points for one set of windings.

If it is 120 or so you are good to go.

You should NOT be able to get a 220 reading at any point once series connection is broken.

In your photo it looks like green yellow is going to the silver screw on the side of the duplex outlet. The green yellow wire is the grounding wire (not neutral) and should go to the green grounding screw. Maybe an illusion as I cannot see all of wires and connections. Be sure to check this.

[professor95]

toprudder wrote:

professor95 wrote:
With some careful measurement and drilling it is possible that you might be able to get a richer mixture by working on the main jet that protrudes into the bottom of the fuel bowl. You might also try a higher float setting.

Actually, for higher altitude you will need to lean the mixture, not richen it. But you are correct, you can't change the mixture on most carbs nowadays.

Yes, you are 100% right (as usual) - but when you get to my age apologies are not always necessary for confusion. I knew better, but just wasn't fully in gear as I was writing (lets's see now, is it up or down for more or less???? :h.)

One "old" trick is to fill the brass jet with solder and then drill a new, smaller hole. Also, the float level needs to be dropped, not raised if a leaner mixture is desired.

Good to hear from you again.

[lt_eggbeater]

I would be happy with 20 amp continuous, its quite a bit off from that right now though. As for the inverter its an inverter/charger so when the genny is running it passes the power through to the whatever is drawing load and whatever is left over goes to charging the battery bank. We have a heavy duty 25kw whisperwatt and a 10kw kohler also but they are pretty much over kill. So we usually have the care takers run the champion every night through the inverter to run the irrigation pumps(1200 watts) and the egg incubator 300 watts plus various other loads, tv lights etc, whatever is left over out of the 14 amp max draw that we currently have the inverter programmed to ask of the genny is used to help charge or equalize the battery bank. It would be much better if I could get 20 amps out of the genny though. It runs about 10 hours a night on average and somtimes 24 hours a day if its cloudy out. I think it has about 900hrs so far.

[Kenper]

Recheck the wiring. Also consider there is always the possibility that the schematic for the wiring I gave you might be different for your particular generator - meaning colors of wires we identified might have changed. Be sure you have completely broken the series point connection so 220 volts is not present.

Bottom line is to separate the two series windings and then parallel them with the same phase relationship. Putting them in parallel with opposite phase relationship will produce zero to 56 volts depending on AVR style used in generator.

The rewire has worked for all I have helped, provided the correct wires are cut/moved and the paralled windings have the same phase relationship (not 180 degrees out of phase). Don't let this "phase" lingo confuse you, no matter what you do you will still have a single phase genny.


How will I know if they're 180 degrees out of phase?
(Sorry, it originally quoted the wrong post)

[MrWizard]

top rudder, i was about to say that.. the OP needs to lean carb, if he could fine the carb for the 2000 watt model, the jetting might be correct for this model at 6000 feet, " this MIGHT work maybe "

[Kenper]

MrWizard wrote:
kenper

even though you parallel the windings, it sounds like the windings are center tapped in the generator head

the fact that it trips the CB with doubler adapter plugged in but does not trip with out the adapter indicates the duplex plug has the center connector tabs broke out and the genny is a center tapped head, still putting out 220.

this was mentioned in the post with the re-wire instructions and meter switch, to check the duplex outlet.

it can be fixed but you will have to open the genny head,

can you take some pictures of the head wiring and the back of the face plate wiring and post them here or on a picture site

The duplex plugs had the center connecter broken out. I used a jumper. It is using the exact same wiring to both the top and bottom of the duplex. I was able to get the AC running one time with the doubler in place. I was never able to get it running with the 3 prong TT plug. It is also using the exact same wiring to the 3 prong poutlet. It tripped every time. If I moved the CB lever real slow It would really bog down then trip.

I included a link to Snapfish. I haven't tried this before.
The picture of the Generator head is prior to the wiring change. I can't find the picture I took after. I left the Red to Red, White to White and Black to Black. I removed the White to Yellow/Green. I moved the brown to the bottom empty slot and added a red to it which runs to the red after the CB.
In the pic of the CB, top has red on one side, black on other. Bottom of red side has red (from brown)input and red output to plug. Bottom of Black side has White input and Black output to plug.
Duplex plug has black input on short slot side with a jumper from top to bottom. Red input on long slot side with top to bottom connecter still in place.
TT plug has Black top hot, Red to common and yellow/green to ground.
TT plug is inline prior to the duplex plug. They all use the same wiring.

How can I check the output of the wires individually so I can confirm which wires should connect with which?

Flickr link added.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38859944@N06/?saved=1

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
With some careful measurement and drilling it is possible that you might be able to get a richer mixture by working on the main jet that protrudes into the bottom of the fuel bowl. You might also try a higher float setting.

Actually, for higher altitude you will need to lean the mixture, not richen it. But you are correct, you can't change the mixture on most carbs nowadays.

[professor95]

lt_eggbeater wrote:
How many running watts can I expect at 6000 feet on a c46540 generator? I am getting about 1900 watts with a variation in hertz of 61 to 58. If I want totaly stable IE 59-60hz I need to back off to about 1400-1500 watts. The generator is maxed out at about 2300 watts but the hertz fall all the way to about 54 at this setting. This is feeding a Trace 4024 off grid inverter up at my mini ranch between snowflake and concho az. So I can set the max amps drawn from the generator on the inverter setings. Currently I have the inverter set to draw a max of 14 amps. Is this normal performance? I would think it would do a bit better than that.
Thanks in advance.

The variation in frequency is not that unusual. The engine MUST run at exactly 3,600 RPM to supply 60Hz. As load changes so will engine speed. The engine governor (speed control) is activated by an internal centrifugal mechanism that is somewhat slow to react (slow being up to a couple of seconds). There is also the issue of external adjustment of engine speed and the governor control arm and spring. You may need to change these settings to get close to your desired frequency under load. From my experience trying to maintain 60Hz is unnecessary and almost impossible with a direct drive non-inverter generator.. Unless you are running a synchronous clock or similar device a variation of + or – 5Hz is nothing to be concerned about. Devices connected will work fine and show no heating or ill effects in this range.

As for 6,000 foot elevation: The carburetor cannot easily be rejetted. Thank the EPA and CARB for that. The jet is fixed as are all other orifices and openings. With some careful measurement and drilling it is possible that you might be able to get a richer mixture by working on the main jet that protrudes into the bottom of the fuel bowl. You might also try a higher float setting. Remember that these carburetors use no metering rods and small changes in the main jet size translate to significant A/F changes. I have often thought about finding a pre EPA carburetor with an adjustable main jet from an old engine and doing some shade-tree adapting might prove interesting. Depending on your need for adventure with these engines it might be something to consider. Just be careful that you can return to OEM specs if it does not work.

Actually, you should be loosing about 10-12% for your elevation. I have always said that no matter what the box says, you have a 2,800 watt genny using a 200 cc GX engine clone with a 6.5 HP rating. You can get 3,000 or even 3,500 watts out for a short period of time – but not on a continuous basis.

Doing a little quick math the 2,800 watts is 23 amps. Take away 12% for your elevation and you have what should be a dependable 20 amp output. Please do not turn your nose up at this – 20 amps is a lot of power on a continuous basis from any of these Chinese 3,000 watt class generators. Yes, you should be getting at least 2,700 watts out at 6,000 feet from your genny. Again, adjust the screw on the governor assembly to bring the engine speed up for an increased load to get as close to 60 Hz as possible but still not exceed 65 Hz when load drops.

What I do not understand is how you are using the generator to feed the inverter. The inverter is a DC to AC device and the generator is supplying AC – I know there is more to it than you wrote about. It would be interesting to learn more about how you are interconnecting. It sounds like you have a fantastic system built up. I wish I could see it, but unfortunately the distance from VA to AZ makes that unlikely.