3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[chrisser]

PPCLI-Jim wrote:
heres a question for the gear heads .. those with alot of mechanical inclination , and i see alot of them here.I know a lot of noise comes from the fins and vibration of the motor so ... When dirt motorcycles first started going to water cooling all some guys with skill did was remover the fins off the air cooled cylinders by cutting milling etc and making a water jacket to fit around it. then mig welding it to the cylinder fitting a small rad and pump. i realize that with a stationary motor like this we also have to add a fan to move air past the rad but why hasnt any one tried this . too expensive? to many parts? too complicated of build? that would help draw heat away from the enclosure would it not ? just wondering thanks all jim

I wondered the same thing when reading the thread.

As another benefit, you could then enclose the engine in a sound proof box and use the radiator outside of it - smaller box and less problems distributing the heat.

[PPCLI-Jim]

heres a question for the gear heads .. those with alot of mechanical inclination , and i see alot of them here.I know a lot of noise comes from the fins and vibration of the motor so ... When dirt motorcycles first started going to water cooling all some guys with skill did was remover the fins off the air cooled cylinders by cutting milling etc and making a water jacket to fit around it. then mig welding it to the cylinder fitting a small rad and pump. i realize that with a stationary motor like this we also have to add a fan to move air past the rad but why hasnt any one tried this . too expensive? to many parts? too complicated of build? that would help draw heat away from the enclosure would it not ? just wondering thanks all jim

[pritch272]

Are you going to get yourself another one, MrWizard?

[chrisser]

MrWizard wrote:

Yeah. I guess by smaller I meant that most people seem to opt for something rated at closer to 3500watts and those are running in the $500ish range and are rated at around 30 amps - at least the ones I was looking at.

Still, most of the 2500/3000 generators at HF are over $300 so this seems like a decent deal.

Heck, if you needed more power, you could get two of these things and have 40 amps total for $400 and still be a bit ahead dollar wise of some other options.

I think what Randy/ the professor meant was they are physically the same size and the 3500 watt rating, is 'optimistic' and the 2500 watt rating is more 'realistic' of the actual output sustainable by a 6.5 HP engine

and i agree for $199 a very good buy

OIC.


Been trying to get through this thread. Mind boggling stuff you guys have been working on!

I'd really like to do the LPG conversion so I don't have to cart around gasoline, but it will probably have to wait until next year. Too many projects and not enough season this year!

[MrWizard]

Yeah. I guess by smaller I meant that most people seem to opt for something rated at closer to 3500watts and those are running in the $500ish range and are rated at around 30 amps - at least the ones I was looking at.

Still, most of the 2500/3000 generators at HF are over $300 so this seems like a decent deal.

Heck, if you needed more power, you could get two of these things and have 40 amps total for $400 and still be a bit ahead dollar wise of some other options.

I think what Randy/ the professor meant was they are physically the same size and the 3500 watt rating, is 'optimistic' and the 2500 watt rating is more 'realistic' of the actual output sustainable by a 6.5 HP engine

and i agree for $199 a very good buy

[Old___Slow]

It could be there is a lot of dumping on the market of all these Chinese gensets. 'China Dave' at All experts states "There are so many people that are buying the components to build engines in China it seems a new engine factory pops up every day" and goes on to say " there is some very stick guidelines coming down the road from the EPA that will seperate the 'men' companies from the 'boy' companies importing into the USA. This is from a man who makes up 12/13 trips forth and back to China every year. So, it only makes sense, hit the US market while we can. I do hope some of these deals on the market are not ment to get folks in the door with their advertising schemes. Like I went to Harbor Freight to look at one of the $199.00 3500w gensets and found none. Other products, the same deal. Or I should say 'no deal' I guess for anyone needing a genset at present, if you can find one at the low price, get it while it's hot. We have two basic needs always, " Water and Electricity" Guess that is why 'generators' are a hot topic on RV.NET forums and making this thread last so long. Covers the whole gamut, not just one brand. Thanks to the Professor95 for all these years trying to bring us up to speed.

Floyd


PS: In looking over what is offered online something seems to be new. I find at Amazon.com a Champion 46517 (Category 5) NON CARB compliant @ $349.99 And an Champion 46534 CARB compliant @ $399.00 Looks like the new models are already showing up. May be the last train out for some old stock at lower prices? Or they are trying to beat the new EPA laws? Then too, I did not locate an actual on the shelf 6.5 hp Electric Start gen. Not even at Duropower. Only the new 7.5 hp with electric start. May be a good gen for a RV.

[chrisser]

professor95 wrote:

JD makes more small engines and generators than all the other Chinese companies combined.

I am not sure it is really a "smaller" version. Most likely it is just more realistically rated. 20 amps is 2,400 watts. That is a lot of power if you are not running a rooftop RV air conditioner.

Like the one offered by Harbor Freight - $199.00 is darn near a giveaway. Makes you wonder what JD is selling these things for? Most likely around $100 FOB China.

Yeah. I guess by smaller I meant that most people seem to opt for something rated at closer to 3500watts and those are running in the $500ish range and are rated at around 30 amps - at least the ones I was looking at.

Still, most of the 2500/3000 generators at HF are over $300 so this seems like a decent deal.

Heck, if you needed more power, you could get two of these things and have 40 amps total for $400 and still be a bit ahead dollar wise of some other options.

[professor95]

chrisser wrote:
Don't know if anyone's interested in a smaller version of these generators at a pretty decent price but...

Aldis has a 2500w/3250w 6.5hp on sale now for $199.

http://www.aldifoods.com/us/html/offers/58_9093_ENU_HTML.htm

JD makes more small engines and generators than all the other Chinese companies combined.

I am not sure it is really a "smaller" version. Most likely it is just more realistically rated. 20 amps is 2,400 watts. That is a lot of power if you are not running a rooftop RV air conditioner.

Like the one offered by Harbor Freight - $199.00 is darn near a giveaway. Makes you wonder what JD is selling these things for? Most likely around $100 FOB China.

[Wrace]

professor95 wrote:

The best precaution you can take to protect the AVR and your equipment is to always provide adequate air flow at the generator business end for proper cooling of the AVR. Disconnect all power loads before turning the generator off and not starting the generator with power loads. This means the generator should be started and stopped with all loads disconnected. Once running, you may plug in or turn on your devices. Turn them off or unplug them before shutting down the generator. Also, don't let the generator run out of fuel and shut down when loaded.
If you follow these rules and precautions the chance of damage to your electrical equipment is minimal.

Ok, thank you.

[chrisser]

Don't know if anyone's interested in a smaller version of these generators at a pretty decent price but...

Aldis has a 2500w/3250w 6.5hp on sale now for $199.

http://www.aldifoods.com/us/html/offers/58_9093_ENU_HTML.htm

I picked one up tonight. Haven't had the chance to start it yet (I need to fill the gas can)

Got it out of the box and it's manufactured by JD with a build date of June. Has two 110 outlets and a set of 12vdc terminals with an 8 amp breaker. No twistlock or RV type plug.

For our needs in our small trailer with no AC, it is likely a great fit at a great price, but YMMV. OTOH, for $200, it'd be a nice backup generator too.



I went to two local Aldis. One had 3 left, the other had 5.

[professor95]

Wrace wrote:
Ok I checked and it is Champion C46540 and it has the three position toggle for 120/240.

Do I need to pull the panel off and check how the receptacle is wired or is the above information enough to verify that it does not need rewired?

Thanks

Wrace wrote:
I don't know if this question is supposed to go in the technology forum or here.

We will have a need this winter during power outages to run our laptops, the router, and the Verizon fios box directly off the champion C46540. For a number of reasons I don't want to wire this house for gen use so we will use the Champion during power outages to directly power the electronics via extension cords.

The laptops will be plugged in and powered by generator 110 when in use. What do I need to do if anything to protect the laptops from potential damage when powering them directly from the Champion? Can I just put a surge protector at the end of the extension cord and plug the laptops into that and call it good? No different than using the surge protectors on the wall outlets to power the computer as we do now? Any special considerations given the generator power?

Thanks

To answer both questions.

You do not need to do anything to the C46540. It is properly wired to give you every watt it can generate to the 30 amp TT outlet. The duplex outlet will be limited to 20 amps by a circuit breaker.

As far as running your laptop off of the generator - you do not need to do anything and surge protectors will not really give you any additional protection. They may help protect other equipment that is voltage sensitive since the MOV's (Metal Oxide Varistors) commonly used in these devices might give some additional protection from an over voltage situation since they will "blow" and hopefully cause the surge protector to shut down power to the item plugged directly into the surge protector's outlet.

If you look at the label on the power supply for your laptop you will find that it is designed to automatically work off of a voltage range from about 100 VAC to 240 VAC with a frequency range of 50 to 60 Hz. Thus, it is the most "protected" piece of equipment you will have plugged into the generator.

The risk with any of these Chinese generators that use an AVR is failure of that component. If the AVR should fail the voltage from the generator can quickly spike as high as 190 VAC. Just for clarity, the AVR is an "Automatic Voltage Regulator" that is made up of numerous electronic components which include field effect transistors, diodes, regular PNP and NPN transistors and associated support components such as capacitors and resistors. All of these components are inside the half moon shaped module directly behind the yellow vent cap on the very end of your generator.

While the incidence of AVR failure is low, there is always the possibility something can go awry and result in damage to anything plugged into the generator.

The best precaution you can take to protect the AVR and your equipment is to always provide adequate air flow at the generator business end for proper cooling of the AVR. Disconnect all power loads before turning the generator off and not starting the generator with power loads. This means the generator should be started and stopped with all loads disconnected. Once running, you may plug in or turn on your devices. Turn them off or unplug them before shutting down the generator. Also, don't let the generator run out of fuel and shut down when loaded.

If you follow these rules and precautions the chance of damage to your electrical equipment is minimal.

[MrWizard]

use any surge protector you want, but you don't need one, the generator is not subject to the kind of problems that occur to the utility company vehicles crashes into poles ,down lines, and transformers blowing up , lighting strikes etc that cause the 'transient spikes' that surge protectors guard against, the biggest load on your generator will be a fridge , well pump or furnace blower coming ON which produces a momentary DROP not a spike

[Wrace]

I don't know if this question is supposed to go in the technology forum or here.

We will have a need this winter during power outages to run our laptops, the router, and the Verizon fios box directly off the champion C46540. For a number of reasons I don't want to wire this house for gen use so we will use the Champion during power outages to directly power the electronics via extension cords.

The laptops will be plugged in and powered by generator 110 when in use. What do I need to do if anything to protect the laptops from potential damage when powering them directly from the Champion? Can I just put a surge protector at the end of the extension cord and plug the laptops into that and call it good? No different than using the surge protectors on the wall outlets to power the computer as we do now? Any special considerations given the generator power?

Thanks

[Wrace]

Ok I checked and it is Champion C46540 and it has the three position toggle for 120/240.

Do I need to pull the panel off and check how the receptacle is wired or is the above information enough to verify that it does not need rewired?

Thanks

[Old___Slow]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
Bob(bobandcat)

We all pick up great ideas from others. In your post you mentioned using insulation from a oven. Wow, that is new to me. I used reg house insulation once and found it melted next the the manifold. That's when I checked the temp at the manifold and found 400 degree plus. 'The tip' on using oven insulation sounds correct. Got more?

Wow Floyd !! -
In your post following this one, you said your shop is 110 degrees !!
Tip: Another use for "oven insulation", LOL! :B

~

JC,

Right you are, my friend. With my genny running in the shop, it's putting out about 15,000 btu's according to our Prof'~ To operate a 15,000 btu A/C I need to wire a AC sub panel from the 30a RV recp't
and I'm no 'lectrician. What to do now? Problem with shallow pocket blues.

Floyd