3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[jerdebson]

I have been in the rural electrical business, old REA now RUS, for over 33 years and yes, a double throw switch will prevent a feedback situation, this will prevent problems to either yourself or the power company. Whatever you do make sure it conforms to the electrical code for your application and get it inspected. This isn't to make your life difficult but rather to prevent any problems in the future, such as an accident or law suite. Your insurance will run backwards away from any claim and the "survivors" family, assuming it isn't you or one of your family, will end up with everything you own. Don't laugh this is very important to/for you. Also I can't believe anyone in this industry would encourage a power cord with two male ends. This is a potential disaster waiting to happen. (I have an older trailer that still has the double male ends and it concerns me a great deal. I plan to update that in the near furure. Please discuss this with a responsible/qualified person so you fully understand all the possibilities of disaster.

I will not apologize for the length of this reply, only my spelling due to being done as quick as possible, this is more important than it seems to the unknowing.

roofgoat wrote:
Good Morning. I'm sure my question has been beaten to death but I want to make sure I do this correct and would like to know what you guys/gals would do if this was your house.

I have the Champion C46540 4000w/3500w generator. We lost power here in MO this May for 3 days. I used the generator to keep our deep freezer going (lots of good cow and pig in there).

Now I'd like to use the generator to power most things in the house one at a time as needed. Ex - run the fridge a little, turn off, run the water well, then later the freezer. Our local electric company will come out and install a switch so that when the electricity goes out, you can flip the switch and not worry about back feed issues to harm the workers. The tech said no problem, I just need to provide them a a cord with 2 male ends and a receptacle that matched the Generator's Receptacle I will be plugging into.

Which receptacle would be best, the RV one? And how do I get a cord with two male ends, do I get a cord with one male end and just add another plug to it?

Last, which cord/plug combo is the one I should get based on your knowledge.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

[JConatser]

professor95 wrote:
... Why would a fuel injected, PCM controlled gas truck engine loose power at 4,000 feet compared to sea level?

Does your truck engine have a BAP (Barometric Absolute Pressure) sensor?...if so, perhaps it's not working as it should. If no BAP, perhaps the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor is having some issues...

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
Tell me this one too. Why would a fuel injected, PCM controlled gas truck engine loose power at 4,000 feet compared to sea level?

Whether an engine is fuel injected or carbureted really does not matter. The atmospheric pressure determines how much air makes it into the engine when the throttle is full open, and that determines the max power the engine can produce. (Unless of course you change the fuel type). The less dense the air, the less oxygen makes it into the engine.

Now if the engine has a turbo boost or supercharger of some sort, that is a different matter. Those devices can shove more air into the engine than would happen at normal atmospheric pressure. Cruise configuration for most piston engine aircraft is with the engine at 75% power. With a normally aspirated engine, this will happen at about 8000 feet with the throttle wide open, and is the best cruise altitude. With a turbo charger, the engine can maintain 75% power up to 18000 feet or more, and the cruise performance is most efficient at the higher altitudes as a result (thinner air = less drag). At those altitudes, however, the passengers must be in a pressurized cabin or breathing supplemental oxygen. 🙂

The only real issue between fuel-injected and carbureted engines is in the mixture control. Most fuel-injected engines that I know of have electronic feedback that constantly adjusts the fuel-air mixture to keep it optimum. Most carbureted engines that I know of do not. As you climb in altitude, you will have to lean the mixture to keep it optimum. I did own an '83 Subaru that had a carb, but had the feedback circuitry that adjusted the fuel-air mixture automatically.

[roofgoat]

tvman, the box switch they are installing prevents backfeed.

[tvman44]

Sounds like you are fixing to back feed and I am surprised they approved of that. Very dangerous.

[roofgoat]

Good Morning. I'm sure my question has been beaten to death but I want to make sure I do this correct and would like to know what you guys/gals would do if this was your house.

I have the Champion C46540 4000w/3500w generator. We lost power here in MO this May for 3 days. I used the generator to keep our deep freezer going (lots of good cow and pig in there).

Now I'd like to use the generator to power most things in the house one at a time as needed. Ex - run the fridge a little, turn off, run the water well, then later the freezer. Our local electric company will come out and install a switch so that when the electricity goes out, you can flip the switch and not worry about back feed issues to harm the workers. The tech said no problem, I just need to provide them a a cord with 2 male ends and a receptacle that matched the Generator's Receptacle I will be plugging into.

Which receptacle would be best, the RV one? And how do I get a cord with two male ends, do I get a cord with one male end and just add another plug to it?

Last, which cord/plug combo is the one I should get based on your knowledge.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

toprudder wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that 3% loss per 1000ft the best results after re-jetting, and a OEM jetting for sea level will be an even greater loss !

That would be my guess.

I think you are most likely correct on that one, Bob. Looking at the charts on power loss it is all based upon atmospheric pressure, which of course impacts on the amount of fuel delivered thru the main jet by the venturi siphon effect.

Counter point: Where I live is 138 feet above sea level. While home the generator performs well.

We go up to Big Meadows on the Skyline drive and The Peaks of Otter on the Blue Ridge Parkway several times a year. The elevation at both of the campgrounds is close to 4,000 feet. As far as I can tell, the generator performs just as well there and powers the same group of equipment with no noticeable difference. Thus, it is hard for me to believe there is a significant power loss.

Tell me this one too. Why would a fuel injected, PCM controlled gas truck engine loose power at 4,000 feet compared to sea level?

Just a observeation,

The 'old triumvirates' are new again. Lot's of HP for any gen at any level. But the air is thin. Happy camping.

[professor95]

toprudder wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that 3% loss per 1000ft the best results after re-jetting, and a OEM jetting for sea level will be an even greater loss !

That would be my guess.

I think you are most likely correct on that one, Bob. Looking at the charts on power loss it is all based upon atmospheric pressure, which of course impacts on the amount of fuel delivered thru the main jet by the venturi siphon effect.

Counter point: Where I live is 138 feet above sea level. While home the generator performs well.

We go up to Big Meadows on the Skyline drive and The Peaks of Otter on the Blue Ridge Parkway several times a year. The elevation at both of the campgrounds is close to 4,000 feet. As far as I can tell, the generator performs just as well there and powers the same group of equipment with no noticeable difference. Thus, it is hard for me to believe there is a significant power loss.

Tell me this one too. Why would a fuel injected, PCM controlled gas truck engine loose power at 4,000 feet compared to sea level?

[toprudder]

MrWizard wrote:
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that 3% loss per 1000ft the best results after re-jetting, and a OEM jetting for sea level will be an even greater loss !

That would be my guess.

[MrWizard]

yeah, its a real shame generators don't have a metering style needle , we could adjust, that would solve the problem real easily

[damac]

That 3% per 1000 feet is a generic number that came from champion tech support, so I am not sure how that holds up in the real world vs. other generators.

And they do not seem to sell nor recommend a jet kit, and I have not looked into it.

One thing that I never thought of and just noticed looking through the manaul though is they recommend 3 different spark plugs depending on temperature. Not sure how much of an effect that would have but I am going to buy a couple of each just to have around and will follow their little chart reguardless.

I know riding my 2 stroke dirtbike, I can ride around on stock jettting all year. But there are times more than others where the bike can get really gurgly off the bottom and it effects the power delivery. On those you rarely have to mess with the top end jet, but could possibly need a needle change position and could easily go through a few different pilot jets throughout the year depending on temp and altitude.

That is all the experience I have with engines and jetting 🙂

[MrWizard]

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that 3% loss per 1000ft the best results after re-jetting, and a OEM jetting for sea level will be an even greater loss !

figure 5% per 1000 ft, thats 22.5% loss on a 2800w -avg generator, and max power is down to around 2100-2200 watts

[professor95]

damac wrote:


I am also thinking of just installing a hard start kit on the ac reguardless.

But I am trying to see if the situation raises any flags as far as the generator is concerned. Thanks!

Starting capacitors will age and loose their "kick" over time (just like me, the Wiz and JC :). Even if your A/C is relatively new, the hard start kit may be an improvement over the OEM starting capacitor. A fairly good write-up on Hard Start kits can be found at ModMyRV.Com.

The 3% elevation loss of power should not the the problem - unless it is the "straw that broke the Camel's back" thing. If you suspect elevation and carb jetting resulting in too rich of a mixture, temporarily remove the inner foam element from the air filter (provided the air is not dusty) and run the genny again. It should run slightly leaner without the foam element(which may need cleaning anyway.) To get a richer mixture, gently close the choke just a tiny bit to see if power improves. It it does, you can tape off some of the air intake slots on the air filter housing for a longer term effect.

Here is something that I recently drew up for a friend showing load vs. time for the start-up of a typical A/C. As you can see the first few seconds you turn an A/C on are pretty hard on a genny. As you all ready know, it is important to shed any extraneous 120 VAC loads when starting the A/C.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Easy start capacitor for the A/C.

This isn't a "pitch" for Honda, Yam - or inverter gens - only the wattage
vs A/C start-up & run.
Before Champion came along, I bought a Yam 2400is.

It starts & runs my 15K A/C fine (easily) - sea level.
Haven't tried higher.

The trlr also has a 13.5K which is/was an add-on option. I suspect it doesn't have the easy start capacitor due to tight-wad bean counters.
Haven't bothered to look.
The Yam "struggles" a bit (surge?) to get it going.

I'd look up the A/C specs - but the trlr "stuff" is elsewhere.

~
JC

[MrWizard]

did you turn off the converter ? the WH ?

where did you buy the gas that was in the champ when trying to run it ?

I've run into problems with gas bought at low altitudes, then run in vehicles at higher altitudes

air density, air temp, humidity content, gas vaporization point ?

my A/C's are 11.5k, i think 13.5k is the limit for a 3000 watt genny, taking it to higher altitude with out re-jetting and without buying FUEl formulated for the leaner air, could be a double whammy