โMar-02-2005 06:20 AM
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.
In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.
Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.
What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.
Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.
I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.
Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.
No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.
Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.
Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.
We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.
Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.
Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.
This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......
Randy
For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โcloningโ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โrunningโ display model.
I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:
Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)
The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โSupposedlyโ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.
The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โabove average qualityโ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.
The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.
ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โavailability listingโ.
The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ most likely universally available.
The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โreasonablyโ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โlook alikeโ eng...
โDec-20-2008 04:45 PM
quabillion wrote:
(snip)
This apparent power must be produced and transmitted to the load in the conventional fashion, and is subject to the usual distributed losses in the production and transmission processes.
โDec-20-2008 04:34 PM
bobandcat wrote:
Altitude is by far the larger factor in output loss. This is due to the reduction of available oxygen used in combustion. The temperature also reduces the density of the air and to a lesser extent than altitude, also reduces the available oxygen. By the way, Onan is my source of the info regarding power reduction for altitude and temperature.
โDec-20-2008 03:43 PM
โDec-20-2008 02:33 PM
โDec-20-2008 01:42 PM
bobandcat wrote:
When I conducted the test at 2600VA (V*A=W),
โDec-20-2008 12:35 PM
Salvo wrote:
I'm really not sure the 100F ambient was the cause of your voltage drop at 2600W. My guess you're exceeding the 3500 VA limit.
Is the 2% reduction per 10 F increase over 85 F a typo? That would mean at 105 F, the power is reduced to 0.96 * 3500 = 3360 VA. That's not much of a reduction.
If correct, your gen at 100V should still be able to handle 3360 VA. Another reason to believe it's a VA and not temp issue.
From your data I see it's important to power the fan from the battery, and not from any gen power (12V or 120V) source. Do you have a manual switch to turn fan on and off?
I'm not sure what causes the gen to reduce power at altitude. Is it a lack of oxygen? What about temperature, is there electronics involved to fold back power?
Sal
โDec-20-2008 11:01 AM
โDec-20-2008 10:17 AM
bobandcat wrote:
Professor Randy's recommendation of not using the generator over 2400 watts near 100 degrees ambient was validated by my tests (2200 watts was OK, 2600 watts was not OK). I have set my limit closer to 2000 watts. That allows me to run my AC continuously with short excursions at higher loads to run the microwave for a couple of minutes.
By the way, generator manufacturer state that power output is reduced 3.5% per 1000 ft. elevation and 2% per 10 degree F temperature rise from a baseline of 85 degrees at sea level. Maximum generator output will not be the same everyday for everyone. It will be dependent on the output reductions noted above.
I sometimes camp near sea level and also as high as 9-10,000 ft elevation. My summer ambient temp can be as high as 110-120 degrees or as low as the 20's in the winter. These extremes, especially altitude, can change the generator output by as much as about 1000 watts.
โDec-20-2008 06:19 AM
โDec-19-2008 07:04 PM
bobandcat wrote:
The Professor Randy's comment about not using the generator over 2400 watts near 100 degrees ambient was validated by my tests (2200 watts was OK, 2600 watts was not OK).
โDec-19-2008 05:57 PM
professor95 wrote:
Please repost the temperature graphs. I remember them, but do not know where they are.
โDec-19-2008 03:38 PM
professor95 wrote:
While your calculations may appear accurate, at higher ambient temperatures the ability to remove heat from the generator is reduced. Thus, it will run even hotter than your calculations at 100 degrees F outside.
That's not correct. My measurement made at 54 F directly scales to any other ambient temperature.
Have you ever seen the equation to calculate the junction temperature of say a transistor?
Tj = P * theta + Ta
Tj is the junction temp, P is the power dissipation, theta is the thermal impedance between the junction and ambient, and Ta is the ambient temp.
We can use the same equation to describe our gen. Instead of junction temp, we have some selected location on the gen. The equation shows if Ta is increased by 30F, the junction temp is also increased by 30F.
You don't need to wait till it gets to be 100F outside to to figure out the gen temp at 100 ambient.
BTW, after much searching I found Bob&cat temp data. His measured temps at 100 F ambient are very similar to my projected temps at 100.
So, at 100 dgrees you should back off on power (load) at least 30%, or to no more than 2,450 watts for a 3,500 watt rated genny.
Unfortunately that's about the only time I would consider using my AC.
BTW, you may find it interesting that the hottest temperatures I recorded are after the gen is turned off.
Over by the cast AL engine head, while it's running under 1500W load T=118F. After gen stops, temp increases to 172F. That's at 54F ambient. If it were 100 outside, the gen will get up to 218 F.
There's a problem with the thermal switch. It will do fine while the gen is running. But when gen is turned off, temperatures rise and the thermal switch could trip. It will take a while to reset itself. During that time we won't be able to start the gen.
On the fuel tank..... most all of these gennys, my Kipor included, must have a vented cap to work. If there is no vent, gas flow will stop. On the Chinese 3,000 watt class open frame models the tank WILL leak if sloshed around. The fix is to NOT fill it completely full so the baffel in the tank neck will keep fuel from splashing out. On my Kipor, there is a open and closed valve for the cap vent. Thus, it can be sealed for transport.
โDec-19-2008 02:55 PM
โDec-19-2008 02:42 PM
quabillion wrote:
Say professor, I thought that 30A service used #10 AWG.
You said #12 in you previous post, and I am wondering if it is a typo, or you know something I dont ๐
โDec-19-2008 09:58 AM