3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

448,959 views as of 1/26/08. Will the forum reach the 500,000 mark by its 3rd birthday March 2nd? Maybe we should plan a party? We could ask Little Bill, Team Slacker and Mr. Wizard to blow out the candles. BTW, anyone heard from Little Bill lately?

[Wayne_Dohnal]

...damage is not likely, sans some sort of failure of the voltage regulator or genhead itself. Most all electronic equipment built today is extremely tollerant of noise, frequency variation or distorition of the waveform. This may be attributed to our global economy and the differing quality of alternating current around the world.

Personally, I am not too excited about powering a new 52" HD plasma TV with a replacement cost well into the thousands with a portable genset. When I need to power a TV from the genset, I'll use one of my older and less expensive sets.

I am not particulary concerned about my home refrigerators, freezer, computers, DVD, furnace or equipment in my RV running off of a portable genset.

I think this is a pretty darn good summary of the issue, wrapped up with good advice. The point about the global economy is a good one. The common power spec for things like laptops, cameras, camcorders, etc. these days seems to be 100 to 240 volts, and 50 to 60 hz. And I'd bet the frequency range is a lot looser than that. It's just a bummer for the few users who draw the short straw and end up with one of the few devices that's nit-picky about its power input.

[professor95]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:
Continuing the current waveform and power factor discussion, I captured a few current waveforms. I think their potential to confuse a voltage regulator speaks for itself. I wish I could capture the pictures using a Chinese generator, but I just don't have one.

vmckague wrote:
don't pretend to understand any of the graphs posted…..

Wayne's photos from a scope screen are great. I am impressed with the quality of the digital camera used to capture the images.

A couple of comments from a tired old teacher for the forum members not familiar with what the data in the photos presents.

Wayne is using a dual trace oscilloscope that will monitor two electrical characteristics simultaneously.

The bottom waveform in each photo represents voltage. Vertical movement of the trace represents amplitude, horizontal movement represents time. Voltage should be interpreted as the pressure exerted by the movement of the electrons. Think of it as a sharp needle placed on the palm of your hand – it will not penetrate. But, increase the pressure and you will puncture the skin. Sort of like 12 volts vs. 120 volts.

The top waveform represents current. Current should be interpreted as how many electrons are moving at a particular time or interval - it does not represent pressure, but rather quantity. Think of it as one or two small guys trying to push a car uphill (they can’t), but when 10 more small guys join forces, the car is more easily pushed. Sort of like one amperes vs.12 amperes.

The best effort will be when the 12 guys step back a few yards and increase pressure by running at the car. This is an increase in both pressure (voltage) and quantity (current).

It is all about the work accomplished over a period of time.

In a purely resistive circuit, voltage and current are together, or, current will follow the voltage waveform. Stated another way, as voltage increases so should current. Ohm’s law shows this with the formula; voltage / current = resistance. The amount of work accomplished (measured in watts) will be equal to the voltage x current.

In circuits that contain inductance (L) and/or capacitance (C) as well as resistance (R), the period where peak current and voltage occur will not be the same. In these circuits voltage and current may either lead or lag one another.

In Wayne's photos, devices with characteristics other than pure resistive or typical RLC, RL, or RC configurations introduce current loading characteristics that change conventional expectations for power measurement.

Rather large textbooks have been written explaining this subject – this is a Cliff’s notes of a Cliff’s notes version.

Sorry to jump in with a lesson some may not have asked for. It is just what happens to the psyche of a teacher when a question is asked.

Really, really nice photos. Thanks for sharing them!

[professor95]

One more comment on the safety of electronics when using a portable genny.

Back in September of 2007 another thread was started concerning how a Champion generator reportedly burned out a guy's electronics. The 45 postings there helped to demystify what happened. While the Champion was not specifically to blame, the problem was related to using a portable genset rather than grid power. You may want to review the thread herehere.

Another thing to keep in mind was that the majority of electronic power supplies prior to the late 80's were still based on transformers followed by PN junction diodes, capacitor filters and occasionally voltage regulators. The transformers were generally designed to work off of a wide range of frequencies without excessively heating, the diodes would tolerate 1,000 or more peak inverse volts. It normally took a lightning hit to fry the components.

In the late 80's, transformer-less "switching" power supplies became more popular in electronic equipment. In my opinion, these early switching supplies were not overly tolerant of voltage variations, transients, spikes, harmonic distortion and unstable frequencies. Some used zero crossing detectors that would fault if the voltage were to drop and then rise again like the signal I showed a few days back from my large home generator.

Today's switching power supplies are darn near bullet proof. They will take input voltages as low as 90 VAC or as high as 250 VAC and still provide a stable, regulated output. Trash, noise, etc. on the signal is pretty much disregarded by the PS.

Power supplies using older, less tolerant technology are still out there today. This is the equipment most likely to have problems with direct drive gensets.

[professor95]

vmckague wrote:
I don't pretend to understand any of the graphs posted so my question is will these small genneys with brushes, which mine has, hurt my electronic stuff in my home? I have already used my gen to run my house for over 4 hours and see no problem. Will this take time or is it not really that bad for them. I really don't want to fry my wide screen or my fridge and other stuff. Thanks for any replies.

While I would like to difinitively say no, using the genny will not hurt anything, I cannot.

The diversity of equipment available today leaves some "gray" areas regarding my previous assesments.

Perhaps a better answer would be; damage is not likely, sans some sort of failure of the voltage regulator or genhead itself. Most all electronic equipment built today is extremely tollerant of noise, frequency variation or distorition of the waveform. This may be attributed to our global economy and the differing quality of alternating current around the world.

Personally, I am not too excited about powering a new 52" HD plasma TV with a replacement cost well into the thousands with a portable genset. When I need to power a TV from the genset, I'll use one of my older and less expensive sets.

I am not particulary concerned about my home refrigerators, freezer, computers, DVD, furnace or equipment in my RV running off of a portable genset.

[vmckague]

I don't pretend to understand any of the graphs posted so my question is will these small genneys with brushes, which mine has, hurt my electronic stuff in my home? I have already used my gen to run my house for over 4 hours and see no problem. Will this take time or is it not really that bad for them. I really don't want to fry my wide screen or my fridge and other stuff. Thanks for any replies.

[Old___Slow]

Switching power supply and our gennys,

I have in front of me a Antec switching power supply on hand for one of my many computers. I opened a used 300w that had been replaced by a 500w. Amazing, all the components that could fry. Something else interesting, peak and max output. Just like the gennys. Here is the question. What is the vary best way to protect the PS/s in our equipment we carry in our RV's when our conventional gennys are in use? I kinda understand now why the inverter gennys might be best. I still question which might be better, the capacitor or AVR tpye to best protect our equipment. Just on the hunt for some possible best options.

My present need is to best protect the equipment in use with the two AVR type gensets I own.

Floyd

[Wayne_Dohnal]

Continuing the current waveform and power factor discussion, I captured a few current waveforms. I think their potential to confuse a voltage regulator speaks for itself. I wish I could capture the pictures using a Chinese generator, but I just don't have one.

This is an incandescent light bulb. Current is on the top, voltage on the bottom.




This is a compact fluorescent. I'm not surprised that the Kill-a-Watt doesn't care for it.




A conventional transformer-rectifier power supply.




A Eureka Mighty Mite vacuum cleaner. Note the noise in the waveform.




PD9160A converter with no load. Noise visible here, too.




PD9160A with 7 amp load.




Finally, PD9160A with 65 amp load. There's still noise on the waveform. It looks smaller because the trace is scaled down to fit the higher current reading.

[kingman]

Well I picked up my new champion csa 40015 last night.Got it for $299.00 canadian here at our local costco.Put the wheels on and handle,added oil and fuel and it started on the first pull.Seems maybe a shade louder than my no-name very similar chinese genny,but seems to be much better built.Pulled off the end cover and the wiring is much heavier as well as the avr is metal and finned compared to plastic on my other one. The intelligauge is neat.It keeps track of hours,frequency and volts.It seems to be a very well built unit for such little money.I am sure i will get good service from it and the wheel kit is great.Can't wait for summer so i can try it out camping with the rv.Hope champion continues to improve these and build them in the future.Way to go champion for building such a good unit for a very ,very reasonable price.One happy canadian customer.

[MrWizard]

I do believe he stated, his comparison and reasons in another post, that post you quoted is way back near the start of this thread.

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:
Hello Pete,

So you have an ELM3000? For the $$$$, it is a really nice unit. The more I play with it, the more I like it. It got warm here today (70 beautiful degrees!)- warm enough to start the AC in the Prowler. The ELM3000 handled it effortlessly.

The way the manufacturer wired the stators on the ELM3000 is ideal for us RV users. All you need to do is turn both circuit breaters on (up) and flip the power selector switch to 110 volts. ALL available power the generator can provide is then supplied to the household type duplex outlet on the front of the genset.

For others who may have been following this thread and reading this reply, I put the ELM3000 in my garden trailer behind my lawn tractor and hauled it up to the TT. I left it in the garden trailer and plugged the 30A power cord into the generator via a "dogbone adapter". The generator was about 15 feet to the back left corner of the trailer - out in the open. Once inside with the doors closed, the sound of the generator was very soft and definately not objectionable (to me, anyway). Normal sound from the TV completely covered the generator sound. By all pratical standards, it is a pretty quite little unit, provided you do not have it betwen two RV's and pointed at your neighabor 10' away.

A vary nice report on the ELM3000. Prof95, what has changed your mind about the Elem 3000?:h

[Old___Slow]

N9WOS wrote:

The sine wave was rising to about the 2/3 point, falling off a tad, and then resuming its path to peak voltage.

That looks like the waveform I would expect from a line carrying a lot of peak rectifying loads. If A utility supply line has a lot of resistance in it, or you are using a generator that has a lot of winding resistance, then loading it will a lot of “diode to capacitor” rectified power supplies will cause that type of artifacts.

(ie) Computers, radios, TV’s satellite receivers, compact florescent lights, Big florescent lights with electronic ballast. Battery chargers, and the like.

Even with a stiff utility supply, you will see that “chipping away of the peak” if you have a lot of electronic loads.

Here comes the novice again.

I have assembled about 50 Computers. One of the apx 50 I had purchased a name brand power supply and mother board. When I plugged into the AC both the power supply and the mother board fried. I never knew which caused the burn out. Both were replaced free of charge. My question to Prof95/MrWizard. Was it ever determined what caused the burned equipment in the recent case of the C46540. Was it the AVR or maybe the converter/batt charger switching supply? And, are we to expect many more problems with electronic equipment from gennys with a AVR. I know for sure from EXPERIENCE that A/C and Fridge compressors don't read a MSW and I'm not to worried about my PC but the LCD HDTV is suspect. Added in the mix of concern is now the switching supply.

[N9WOS]

That is why organizations are starting to push for power factor correction in PC power supplies CF lights, and large fluorescent lights. If the number of CF lights, and other stuff grows very much with the modern current signatures, the voltage waveform on the user side of the utility lines is going to start looking freaky.

And as far as the Kill A Watt, they don’t have a very high sampling rate, so the spiky-ness of the current waveform messes with it a bit.

That is why I like an old fashion electromechanical KWH meter with the spinning disk. It is “proof of concept” as far as sine wave power measurement. I don’t know how good they would do on distorted waveforms though. :h

[SonicLogic]

The APC knowledge base can tell you how to run your genset with a UPC here.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

The discussion of the UPS rejecting the generator output makes me wonder if the situation will get worse when we go to compact fluorescents en-mass in a few years. I say this because my little Kill-a-Watt meter works great even with the the despicable MSW waveform driving various loads, but when I have a compact fluorescent as the load the little baby kind of loses it brains and displays bogus readings.