3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Mr__Tommy]

Wouldn't the RV be 'somewhat' grounded via the stabilizing arms or (in the case of a travel trailer) the 'landing gear'? Granted they're just sitting on top of the ground as opposed to a rod pounded into the ground. And my only concern is when I'm using the generator anyway, not plugged in. I always plug my 'circuit tester' thingie into the plug-in in a campsite before plugging my trailer in, just to be sure everything is as it should be.

As an aside here, when I switched from my old 1700 watt inverter to a new Cobra 2500 watt unit, I suddenly got an "open neutral" reading at my outlets. I called Cobra and they said that's the way their units are wired. I've had two of them (because the first one failed in the first 10 minutes) and they both showed the open neutral.

[Wgeorge11]

Somewhere in the early life of this thread there's a discussion of grounding options via water pipes, grounding rods, and metal plates on dampened earth. I've had "grounding" experiences with wet feet on wet ground while touching the trailer, and prefer closing the circuit to ground via jumper cable and a short rod rather than my hands and feet!

[fireguy60]

The only concern is IF THERE IS A FAULT. Under normal circumstances your RV a and gen would be fine. It's all good. But....

If there were to be a fault in the RV electrical, and you walked up to the RV and made contact with the RV and the ground at the same time, YOU become the earth ground for that fault. This may never happen, probably won't ever happen, but... better safe than sorry, as they say.

Again, Professor and MrWizard... Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Mr__Tommy]

Whew...! Sounds like I might be safe after all. But hooking a jumper cable to the water supply pipe is out if I'm dry camping. There is no water supply.

[fireguy60]

The RV ready Champions should be ready to go. I had an older non-RV unit that I converted to full 30 amp service (I did this by following the Champion wiring diagrm in the 120V mode).

As for grounding, opinions seem to vary.

At the very least, a battery jumper cable from the frame of the RV to your water supply pipe is a good idea.

[themave]

Mr. Tommy wrote:
I have been reading and reading this thread for some time now. I have the RV ready Champion generator. My simple question is this... Can I just use it the way it came out of the box without fear of [???]... I use it to run my A/C when dry camping and the temps reach into the high 90's and 100's. Like the average RV'er, I know nothing about technical electrical wiring and breakers and grounds and neutrals (beyond knowing that they must be there). I just wanna "plug and play" with no worries. Take it out of the pickup, set it on the ground, fire it up, relax.

Can I do that?

that's what I do. That is what it is made for, and how it is ment to run,

just my opinion of coarse

[Mr__Tommy]

I have been reading and reading this thread for some time now. I have the RV ready Champion generator. My simple question is this... Can I just use it the way it came out of the box without fear of [???]... I use it to run my A/C when dry camping and the temps reach into the high 90's and 100's. Like the average RV'er, I know nothing about technical electrical wiring and breakers and grounds and neutrals (beyond knowing that they must be there). I just wanna "plug and play" with no worries. Take it out of the pickup, set it on the ground, fire it up, relax.

Can I do that?

[fireguy60]

Thanks professor for the info...

Now my next question, since I have the RV 30 amp plug on my gen, and I have a 30a RV extension cord, I would like to be able to run that 10/3 cord away from the gen, and run 15a circuits. You can buy a 30m to 15f adapter, but is that safe? What happens when someone plugs a 50 ft 14/3 cord into that adapter and tries to pull a 25a load?

I would build an adapter with a male RV plug, to a box with two 15a pushbutton breakers to each of two standard outlets. This would work, right? Theaoretically I could still pull 30a load, but on two 15a breakers.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I am usually wrong....

[Oldfordman]

Will Have RV One Day wrote:
I would like to know the actual fuel consumption and run time of the Champion 3500 watt and the Honda 2000 watt inverter models.

Thanks

I can't speak for the Honda but my Champion 3500 watt runs about 10+ hours on a fill with A/C, Converter (for Battery Charge), and occasional Microwave use. My A/C runs about 50% of the time with outside temps in the 80's. I have never run the tank dry, I stop and refuel when the gauge indicates E.

The advertised run time is 10 hours at 50% load. This just about the same load as a running A/C. Mine "runs" at 12 amps and the total output is 29.2 amps.

[JPatrick]

Not to clutter up an excellent thread, but thanks to professor95 for another very informative post, particularly given the safety and health implications. I, and probably most of the others who have read and/or posted on this thread, gratefully appreciate the time you have put into informing those of us who are attempting to get the most "recreation" out of our recreational vehicles and are trying to do it without any rude surprises/shocks.

Thanks again.

James

[Will_Have_RV_On]

I would like to know the actual fuel consumption and run time of the Champion 3500 watt and the Honda 2000 watt inverter models.

Thanks

[MrWizard]

well said ! professor

[professor95]

Keep in mind that a generator is a portable appliance used to produce electricity. While the end result is pretty much the same as a public utility power source, the key descriptors are "portable" and "appliance".

An RV is also an "appliance". Being an appliance, the neutral wire and the grounding wire within the appliance are NOT bonded as in a residential building. If you are plugging a RV into a generator that does not have a ground rod attached to the frame it is possible that the frame of the generator and the camper may become "hot" in the event of an electrical fault. Touching metal on the generator or camper while stepping on the earth ground would quickly identify this problem in a "shocking" manner.

It is permissable for the neutral wire on a portable generator to be connected directly to an earth ground via a buried cold water pipe or ground rod. It is NEVER permissable for the neutral to be tied directly to a generator frame. (yes, some generators are wired this way. I believe Canadian standards may require this - scary!)

The ground(ing) wire from the outlets should be tied to the generator frame. The grounding wire carries no current unless there is a fault. The generator frame and the grounding wire should, whenever possible, be connected to a good earth ground. "IF" the grounding wire is attached to a good earth source, the neutral wire may also be attached to the same earth source via an independent connector to the ground rod. Absolutely under no circumstaances should the neutral and grounding wire both be attached to the generator frame at any point other than a common groud(ing) rod with independent attachment clamps.

Mr Wizard is also correct on the concept of a breaker in the neutral circuit. It sould NOT be possible to open the neutral line and leave the hot line closed. Thus, either remove the neutral breaker or use a tie bar so that both breakers will trip together.

I know it can be confusing, but safety must be clearly understood - not just interpreted. I'm not braggin' guys, but as a Master Electrician certified to teach the stuff and with considerable experience teaching electrical safety engineering as well, I am comfortable that my statement is the best for assuring personal safety when using portable generators.

Info for readers who may be electrically inexperienced:
Grounding(ing) - This is the green, green/yellow or bare copper wire that goes to the center lug on the outlet. The outlet will have a green screw for attachment.

Neutral is "usually" white in colot, but on generators it may be any color. The neutral wire will go to the silver screw on the outlet. This is also the longest blade on the front of the two blade slots.

Hot is usually any color but white , green/yellow or green. Again, on a generator, wire color rules may not apply. The hot wire attaches to the gold screw on the outlet. This is the side with the shorter blade socket.

In a portable generator either pole may be hot or neutral. The point on the outlet where it is wired and possible externally grounded will in reality identify what is considered hot and what is neutral.

If you disagree, that is your priviledge. Just don't invite me to come sit in your RV while you have your generator running.

[MrWizard]

like said, as long as the neutral is left 'unbonded' there is no safety problem

and i will have double check the champion diagram, because I did not notice that.

and mine is unbonded and unmodified as it is the RV ready model,

if the breakers had been placed after switch but before the outlets/load then they could have been placed permanently in the hot legs of the outlets, but it would have required another breaker .

removing the 220 option and making the generator 120 only, there is no compelling reason for leaving the breaker in the neutral circuit, and may not even be code legal in a 120v only generator.

and 'either or' situation is on different legal ground than a single voltage unit as far as mfg & sale are concerned. the mfg was required to put a breaker in each hot leg of the 240 circuit, having an ubonded neutral allowed them to do this with less parts and expense. ( but that hot leg became a neutral when you permanently changed the circuit from a split load to parallel windings combined load )

a DIY conversion is a different jurisdiction.

BUT if I did the conversion to 120v only, i would put the second breaker in the hot leg, an extras piece of wire and (1) wire nut to make the change.

[toprudder]

fireguy60 wrote:
You do both realize that my diagram is EXACTLY like the C46540 Champion when the switch is in the 120V RV Ready mode. THe Champion engineers do not see a problem....

Well, there you go!!!:)

Bob R.