3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

this is a big thread, IF you read even 1/4 of it you will come to realize that even though your A/C started and ran on the 20amp plug, it is only using 1 of the 2 windings in the generator head to supply the power to the plug

using this genny that way, will work for a short while, but it like pulling your trailer uphill with 4 cyl of your v8, while the other for have the plug wires pulled and the plugs removed from the head. you will soon destroy your v8

doing this with your generator will soon destroy the genny, taking that much load several hot days in a row all day long, on one winding, the genny will fail on the hottest day IF not before

the simple rewire provided will make sure you use both windings in the genny head to get 120v power to all receptacles and guarantee you don't burn out the genny head wiring (the one winding being used) on the day you need it the most.

quite frankly we are surprised that, a generator with that wiring design is still being sold.

you will get an increased safety factor and increased reliability of the genny by changing the wiring.

for another analogy, you need to pull some stumps, you have (2) mules, 1 mule can do the job, working very hard, the other mule a little older cannot do it, both mules together make it an easy job for both,

do you let one rest and over work the ONE, (if the stronger mule dies from over work, you still have the lessor one
)or do you hook them both up and share the load.

but if the genny burns a winding its shot,gone, kaput, you have to buy a new one

those windings are the same size, but they put a bigger breaker on ONE side of the circuit, when you use the adapter in the twist lock, you are still using a winding designed for less power, its over fused, because the twist lock is supposed to be used only for 240 power, where both winding are being used for a pump motor or other 240 device

[Crackshot]

professor95 wrote:

crackshot wrote:
You are right. My mistake for not reading manual correctly.
I did get a twist lock last night and did run the A/C no problem.
When the compressor kicked in, there was a load where it revved up the engine for a couple seconds.
Now what my manual says is that I have 4 110v household outlets.
One of the outlets is 1800 watts 15 amps. The other outlet is 2800 watts 20 amp.
So I should be able to run my A/C from the outlet that puts out the 20 amps and not need the twist lock adapter since the twist lock outlet specs the same.

Oh-my-gosh, not another one of those beasts! :S I thought they were all extinct by now. :h

Several years back another well know Chinese genny builder did the same thing. A few of us "old timers" on this thread questioned the wisdom of putting a 20 amp breaker on one winding and a 15 on the second. Soon thereafter it was discontinued.

The problems with one winding potentially loaded more than the other at 120 volts were asking for a fried winding dinner along with a significant amount of harmonic distortion appearing on the output waveform. The manufacturers were "assuming" that this design pattern would only be used for 240 VAC operation and both windings would NEVER be loaded to the max at the same time when drawing 120 VAC. Obviously, they did not know much about the RV crowd. Our group needs 240 about as often as often as a flat tire. What we needed was a 120 volt genset that could provide a balanced load across both 180 degree opposed output windings. Such an animal would give less so called “dirty power” than a center tapped 240 volt arrangement and maintain the total wattage generated at 240 volts while directing it to a single 120 VAC outlet.

It did not take long for the design of most gennys coming from China to comply with a RV’ers needs along with the ability to select series or parallel from a front panel switch and direct power to a single 30 Amp TT outlet.

BTW – the major difference in a L14-20 and a L14-30 twist lock outlet is the design of the locks. Just raising the physical maximum current rating on the outlet does not mean the genny will put out that much power – but I will have to admit it does look more powerful with a 30 amp rated outlet than a 20 amp rated outlet. You know, sort of like the implication of putting a coffee can size exhaust tip on a little 4 cylinder foreign car.

Now to the wattage thing.... (remember, wattage is a measure of power and thus work that can be done). 15 amps worth of electron flow (breaker limited) will produce a maximum of 1,800 watts at 120 volts of pressure. If we increase the current limitation to 20 amps, the maximum wattage will increase to 2,400 watts. Unless the "new math" has returned, this is a difference of 600 watts, not the 1,000 watts you reference. If that is indeed what your manual states, the Chinese are much worse at math than I originally suspected.

Anyway……. Those ratings are the MAXIMUM for extremely short periods of time. Operation at those loads for sustained periods will cause a rapid rise in alternator core temperature that will soon let all the smoke out of your generator head. As we all know, the magic ingredient of smoke cannot be put back into the windings and a new genny will soon be needed. Additionally, we have not even discussed how much of this energy is wasted as heat in the conductors that make up the alternator and related wiring while voltage drop increases due to heat induced resistance changes from a higher electron flow.

Regardless of what the big numbers say on the box, ads or manual, you have a 2,800 watt generator capable of providing a combined total of 23 amps of reliable current over an extended period of time at 120 volts without major concern of damage to the generator. In short, the box it cam in LIES!

As an old E.E. and college professor who has spent much of my life closely associated with the miracles of electricity and electronics along with the clear understanding of our inability to neither create nor destroy energy (only change forms) I have come to believe you will never get more power out of a gasoline engine driven generator than you put into it - unless it is momentarily assisted by a bolt of lightning.

Put the mythology books away and believe what Mr. Watt and Mr. Ohm have written.

If your desire is to run a 13,500 to 15,000 BTU recreational vehicle air conditioner with one of these 3,000 watt class Chinese generators you need to have parallel alternator windings rather than series – even if one of the series windings might manage to get it started.

But, I guess if Joe’s uncle’s brother’s cousin knows someone that says otherwise then the Wizard and I must be all wet with our constant admonishments to their professed wisdom.

Make it parallel or you will be confronted with a series of problems. (Pun intended)

What's up?
I get the feeling that this is talking down to me and that you are better than the average RV'er or something?

[professor95]

crackshot wrote:
You are right. My mistake for not reading manual correctly.
I did get a twist lock last night and did run the A/C no problem.
When the compressor kicked in, there was a load where it revved up the engine for a couple seconds.
Now what my manual says is that I have 4 110v household outlets.
One of the outlets is 1800 watts 15 amps. The other outlet is 2800 watts 20 amp.
So I should be able to run my A/C from the outlet that puts out the 20 amps and not need the twist lock adapter since the twist lock outlet specs the same.

Oh-my-gosh, not another one of those beasts! :S I thought they were all extinct by now. :h

Several years back another well know Chinese genny builder did the same thing. A few of us "old timers" on this thread questioned the wisdom of putting a 20 amp breaker on one winding and a 15 on the second. Soon thereafter it was discontinued.

The problems with one winding potentially loaded more than the other at 120 volts were asking for a fried winding dinner along with a significant amount of harmonic distortion appearing on the output waveform. The manufacturers were "assuming" that this design pattern would only be used for 240 VAC operation and both windings would NEVER be loaded to the max at the same time when drawing 120 VAC. Obviously, they did not know much about the RV crowd. Our group needs 240 about as often as often as a flat tire. What we needed was a 120 volt genset that could provide a balanced load across both 180 degree opposed output windings. Such an animal would give less so called “dirty power” than a center tapped 240 volt arrangement and maintain the total wattage generated at 240 volts while directing it to a single 120 VAC outlet.

It did not take long for the design of most gennys coming from China to comply with a RV’ers needs along with the ability to select series or parallel from a front panel switch and direct power to a single 30 Amp TT outlet.

BTW – the major difference in a L14-20 and a L14-30 twist lock outlet is the design of the locks. Just raising the physical maximum current rating on the outlet does not mean the genny will put out that much power – but I will have to admit it does look more powerful with a 30 amp rated outlet than a 20 amp rated outlet. You know, sort of like the implication of putting a coffee can size exhaust tip on a little 4 cylinder foreign car.

Now to the wattage thing.... (remember, wattage is a measure of power and thus work that can be done). 15 amps worth of electron flow (breaker limited) will produce a maximum of 1,800 watts at 120 volts of pressure. If we increase the current limitation to 20 amps, the maximum wattage will increase to 2,400 watts. Unless the "new math" has returned, this is a difference of 600 watts, not the 1,000 watts you reference. If that is indeed what your manual states, the Chinese are much worse at math than I originally suspected.

Anyway……. Those ratings are the MAXIMUM for extremely short periods of time. Operation at those loads for sustained periods will cause a rapid rise in alternator core temperature that will soon let all the smoke out of your generator head. As we all know, the magic ingredient of smoke cannot be put back into the windings and a new genny will soon be needed. Additionally, we have not even discussed how much of this energy is wasted as heat in the conductors that make up the alternator and related wiring while voltage drop increases due to heat induced resistance changes from a higher electron flow.

Regardless of what the big numbers say on the box, ads or manual, you have a 2,800 watt generator capable of providing a combined total of 23 amps of reliable current over an extended period of time at 120 volts without major concern of damage to the generator. In short, the box it cam in LIES!

As an old E.E. and college professor who has spent much of my life closely associated with the miracles of electricity and electronics along with the clear understanding of our inability to neither create nor destroy energy (only change forms) I have come to believe you will never get more power out of a gasoline engine driven generator than you put into it - unless it is momentarily assisted by a bolt of lightning.

Put the mythology books away and believe what Mr. Watt and Mr. Ohm have written.

If your desire is to run a 13,500 to 15,000 BTU recreational vehicle air conditioner with one of these 3,000 watt class Chinese generators you need to have parallel alternator windings rather than series – even if one of the series windings might manage to get it started.

But, I guess if Joe’s uncle’s brother’s cousin knows someone that says otherwise then the Wizard and I must be all wet with our constant admonishments to their professed wisdom.

Make it parallel or you will be confronted with a series of problems. (Pun intended)

[Curly2001]

Thanks for your help.
Curly

[professor95]

Curly2001 wrote:
Hi all...so if you were to buy the above Champion generator for your power source, is it all wired up and ready to use for a 13,500 A/C unit??
Thanks,
Curly

Yes. The Champion model shown at TSC has a switch to select either parallel or series windings and thus will provide you with full wattage (3,000 to 3,500) at 120 VAC

[Crackshot]

Curly2001 wrote:
Hi all...so if you were to buy the above Champion generator for your power source, is it all wired up and ready to use for a 13,500 A/C unit??
Thanks,
Curly

Curley, That is what I have.
It's the 3500 watt model and my a/c is the 13,500 ducted.

[Crackshot]

No, no, no........ you will not get 5 more amps and double the watts. Watts is power and it is the voltage x the amperage. You will have exactly what you have on a single duplex outlet at 120 volts. Any attempt to alter this in a manner different than putting the two generator windings in parallel with respect to the proper phase relationship will ruin your generator and possibly damage anything connected. It can also potentially ruin you!

All kinds of urban myths about generators abound. Guess this is a new one.

You are right. My mistake for not reading manual correctly.
I did get a twist lock last night and did run the A/C no problem.
When the compressor kicked in, there was a load where it revved up the engine for a couple seconds.
Now what my manual says is that I have 4 110v household outlets.
One of the outlets is 1800 watts 15 amps. The other outlet is 2800 watts 20 amp.
So I should be able to run my A/C from the outlet that puts out the 20 amps and not need the twist lock adapter since the twist lock outlet specs the same.

[Old___Slow]

Kenper wrote:
Old & Slow,
I have the Genny in question and the manual states....The DC terminal may be used to operate 12 Volt DC portable appliances only.
CAUTION! Do not use this generator
to charge 12VDC batteries. Directly charging a 12 Volt battery may cause the battery to overheat and possibly explode.
CAUTION: Do not attempt to start an automobile engine with this generator. Voltage back feed from the alternator may damage the generator.

Ken

Hmmm, That is truly interesting info' I had never noticed a wiring diagram of a Chinese genset showing the 12vac coming from the main windings and then through a diode to the 12vdc outlet recpt' Thanks JC for giving us the live link to the HF Chinese genset.

Floyd

[Old___Slow]

Curly2001 wrote:
Hi all...so if you were to buy the above Champion generator for your power source, is it all wired up and ready to use for a 13,500 A/C unit??
Thanks,
Curly

Curly,

The Professor tries to answer most questions. This one I'll take. Yes the Champion C46540 has the RV 120vac recpt' on board and did power my old 13,500 A/C with No problem. Could even add the Micro but the clock timer got a little odd. When I bought the Champion I was happy to find a genny that would not reduce pocket change really that much. But right away I saw on this thread the sound level was being addressed by Prof95. The noise level of the Champion is one draw back but yes it will operate a 13,500 btu A/C as posted by many on various threads.

Floyd

[Curly2001]

Sorry..was a duplicate coming up here.
Curly

[Curly2001]

Hi all...so if you were to buy the above Champion generator for your power source, is it all wired up and ready to use for a 13,500 A/C unit??
Thanks,
Curly

[mrfixit454]

Old & Slow wrote:
Fixit,

I just looked out in the genhouse and found I have on hand: One, a Facet Onan part #149-2272 fuel pump and a Holley 12-804 1-4 PSI Fuel Pressure Reg. Never tried the two together as I am a follower more than a leader. Do you have a Chinese genny? If so, maybe you might see what you can do and give us a report.

Floyd

Floyd,
I wish I could test for you however, since my onan did not fit on my current 5er and my ELIM was a little noisy for me plus I did not like transporting gens again, I opted for the EU3000 since a friend was selling it and it fit in my "mini cave". I am giving the ELIM to my sister-in-law for her trailer so I don't want to mod it.

As Professor stated, these Chinese gens should take about.5 psi so you would need a regulator that could handle that. I wish I had the time to tinker like some of you but with raising 3 little ones, there is not much time so I opted for equipment that I can use pretty much out of the box.

BTW.. my Onan fuel pump had no problems lifting the fuel out of the tank that was two feet under it. Keep in mind that the onan's have 2 cylinders and a larger carb so you might want to find a smaller pump and regulator if these exist.

Maybe you can lead us on this one 😉

Fixit

[Kenper]

Professor95,
I would like to thank you for taking the time to actually make up schematics for me. I haven't pulled the panel yet to look at the actual wiring. I do know that the schematis shows a 20A twist lock and the Genny actually has a 30A. I hope I don't find anything else screwy. I guess theres nothing left to do but actually start cutting and splicing.
Thanks again.
Ken

[Kenper]

Old & Slow,
I have the Genny in question and the manual states....The DC terminal may be used to operate 12 Volt DC portable appliances only.
CAUTION! Do not use this generator
to charge 12VDC batteries. Directly charging a 12 Volt battery may cause the battery to overheat and possibly explode.
CAUTION: Do not attempt to start an automobile engine with this generator. Voltage back feed from the alternator may damage the generator.

Ken

[Kenper]

Crackshot,
I would appreciate hearing if the adapter works. Looking at the schematic it looks like the twistlock 220/110 uses the same wires as the regular 110 so I didn't think it would give me any more power. If it works I can find an adapter on Ebay.
Ken