3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

Hemiallen wrote:
Thanks for the lowdown from Paul, Professor.

I realize Paul said what he hopes to add, electric remote start, but I suspect the over the counter, non deep discount's that allow some to say the Champion is a $300 generator is way off the remote start version.
I would wager a guess at a $750 price tag...???.... to consumers. When was the last time this unit was $300?

Thanks again
Allen

Allen, none of my comments should be construed as factual. I am projecting what I see as a good possibility. I have been wrong before, and very well could miss the mark this time as well.

The electric start add on kit will need to include the starter motor, flywheel ring gear, battery charge coil, push button start switch, bolt-on universal battery holder box, relay/solenoid and a few studs, bolts and some wire.

To install the kit will require removing the engine shroud, cutting a notch for the starter, attaching a "hump" that covers the starter gear. The flywheel will need to be pulled to attach the ring gear/charge coil and a hole drilled into a piece on the block to insert a mounting stud. A push button switch will need to be wired into the existing circuit so it will only work when the engine switch is in the "on" position.

One will need some mechanical inclination and a few tools, such as a drill, bit, wrenches, flywheel removal tool and aviation snips.

I seriously doubt that the battery will be part of the kit. I expect the kit to reference a small motor scooter battery that can be picked up at Wal-Mart or an auto supply store.

My projection is that the kit will come in at no more than $175 retail. Better prices may be possible - we need to wait and see.

As for the remote starter, we will need a radio frequency transmitter and receiver capable of at least 200'. The remote kit needs to include a solenoid to activate the choke.

On the engine side the transmitter will need an actuation circuit for on/off/start and choke. This function could easily be combined into one "start" button on the remote transmitter.

The kit will also require some wiring attachments as well as mounting of the choke solenoid. The purchaser/installer should have some ratchet, socket, drill and wire genes.

Again, my projection is that this kit will most likely retail in the $80 range.

Add those together and we have a projected upgrade cost of about $250. Again, based on what I have seen, a unit factory equipped with these items should not add any more than that to its cost, possibly less.

As for $299 generators, they come and go with seasonal sales. Tractor supply recently had a lower price sale (rebate). CSK for some reason decided to clear their warehouse of units at a bargan basement price (so they could turn around and order more). With Lowe's and NAPA picking up the Champion line, and the expansion in outlets due to the consolidation of CSK and Riely's, competion will surely heat up in some markets. I think the $299 prices will be there, but you will need to search them out. Generally, a flood sale of this type is posted on this forum. Of course, hurricanes and ice storms deplete inventoy and thus prices rise. If no major storms hit this year, it will surely be a buyers market by late summer.

Don't forget that the WEN PowerPro sold by PepBoys is also frequently on sale. It is a very well made unit, but lacks the customer support of the Champion. I would not hesitate getting a WEN if the price was right provided I had some mechanical ability and a desire to innovate should a component fail and need replacement.

Once again, NO INSIDER INFORMATION is contained here. I am inclined to do pre-analysis on such doododdies and patiently wait to see how close I come to the bulls eye.

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
But, Professor, with all due respect, the little C46540 can be cooled with a Procom 1150/1250 cfm 12v/80a fan, in a controlled environment. I say this for others as I know this fact is a known to you. You seem to have reliability issues you may like to splane?

I do not have reliability issues or concerns with the enclosure I custom built for my RV. I monitor the temperatures, make sure it is full of oil and not overloaded. I also find it extremely fustrating that no matter what I write, a word or phrase frequently is extracted from contex and maniuplated into something it was never intended to express. I never insinuated I had reliability issues with my conversion.

Darn, Floyd, you would make a fantistic script writer for a politication running for elected office! 😉

But, I regress - back to the question.

Not too surprisingly, there are customers out there who buy these units that have no idea what a watt is and expect a 3,000 watt genny to provide the same level of power as the electric company does at their meter base on their house. Engines are often run with no oil, even thou they are tagged as having no oil in them when shipped. They are stuffed into dark, unventilated corners, run like the fillies at the Derby and end up like Eight Belles did last weekend. They are never given a second look or hint of maintenance.

You, I and the rest of the folks on this thread have exhibited some level of common sense and understanding of what needs to be done. Yes, we could handle a unit with sound reduction panels and maintain some semblance of reliability. I am not so sure the rest of the world could (can).

Maybe we need to hold a class and certify owners as competent before they buy such a generator?........ Just joking.

When you operate a machine on the edge of its intended usage band, you are asking for reliability issues to surface from non-savvy consumers. Enclosures of any type from the factory for these generators without redesigning many parameters would be a warranty nightmare. I fully understand why they are not available.

Now I, on the other hand, will take a Yugo and redesign it into a space ship. That's just what I do - but it does not insinuate that is what the Yugo factory should do.

I get it, Floyd. But, once again, this is no longer an "information" issue. The need and desire have been expressed and duly noted - over and over. Now it is time to move on to something new and more pertinent to the RV community about these little gennys.

Please, my friend, please. Once again, let this topic go. We agree you are right in your desire - but the thread has grown weary of the topic. It is time to move on......

[Old___Slow]

CosmicVagabond wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
All,

Well, the conscience of opinion is '$300 brings lots of dependable power for our use', be it at home or on the road with our RVs. Okay, I agree. Thanks Prof, your continued efforts to bring our needs and desires to Champion is commendable. I do feel progress is in the wind and wave. For those's that might think that my one desire is to trash Champion, you are flat out wrong. I own a Champion C46540 that has never ever given me one moment of problem and operates my LCD HDTV/ monitor and PC with no add-on device. It sits in a Yellow and Black trimmed GENHOUSE/shop in a beautiful 60 dBA sound lowering enclosure. If I had a Champion flag, it would fly. My interest was/is for the RV community to have a 'TRUE VALUE' Chinese MFG RV genset. Yes, it would need to be Electric Start/remote controlled and 60 dBA or lower and have a Champion name. Is that to much to shoot for?

Floyd

It's funny, my 46540 doesn't have electric/remote start (not necessary), isn't 60 dBA or lower (mine meets all applicable standards no matter where I camp, but it does have the champion name. BUT, I do have a 'true value' Chinese Mfg RV genset. How come mine is 'true value' and yours isn't?

I have a saying I don't always live by. "When in doubt, say or do nothing" This AM I face the Professor saying, go buy a Honda and Cosmic Vagabond say "How come mine is 'true value' and your's isn't.
I fell both of you miss my point, also MrWizard. This is my story and it is MHO, for what its worth or perhaps no value.

I bought a used MH with a DOA, OEM, genset. To repair it, was going to cost $2300 with no guarantee it would then give good service. At that time my search began for a replacement. Value was my objective. Value in the lower cost range. I my OLD mind had the thought, I was not going to give good bucks for a bad investment. In my search I arrived here on this vary thread. I started from day one reading. In my quick analysis, Champion seemed to be the answer I was looking to find. There were those good posters who left links to partsamerica.com for a Champion C46540 and at that time they left a code for the 10% discount. So for a total cost of $270 plus some small shipping and Texas State Tax, it was delivered to my door by UPS. I received a unit with no shipping damage. I was all excited. The Yellow and Black beauty was a sight to behold. Here was a little genset that could and did power my MH from the get-go with no problem. All was well. Then after the new wore off and reality set in, the noise level became more of a problem. But, Professor put us on the idea of sound reduction. A much longer story made short. 60 dBA seems to be the sound level most MFG are trying to give us RV folks. The cost at this time, for 3000 watts at around 60dBA is close to $3000 bucks. So this was my point. Why can not Champion or some other MFG give us a Chinese genset with Electric Start, Remote control with around 60 dBA for less than the cost of a Honda or Yamaha? And, with this qustion Wiz, I will end the sound of my harp, now and ever.

But, Professor, with all due respect, the little C46540 can be cooled with a Procom 1150/1250 cfm 12v/80a fan, in a controlled environment. I say this for others as I know this fact is a known to you. You seem to have reliability issues you may like to splane?

Floyd

[professor95]

Wgeorge11 wrote:
Randy.
I pray you won't find my "unformal" greeting to be too impertinent, Professor, but I just had to try it out. While I also call my wife "Judy", she too is called "professor" by her students and professional peers. Of course, I sometimes call her otherwise!

My friends, of which I believe you to be, call me Randy. But, thanks for the respectful consideration you expressed.

[Old___Slow]

Well MrWizard,

My harp is well tuned. If one was to listen real close they would hear the melody of 'I'm a Champion, I have the Power, 3000 watts, just plug me in and I'll light your world' so yes, another post. George, when you see OLD & SLOW on the left side of the screen, just know, tho' I 'google' sometimes, I love little Yellow & Black and all of you.


Floyd

[MrWizard]

I think we have 'true value'

you would like 'extraordinary value' so would the rest of us, but we don't harp on it in every post

[CosmicVagabond]

Old & Slow wrote:
All,

Well, the conscience of opinion is '$300 brings lots of dependable power for our use', be it at home or on the road with our RVs. Okay, I agree. Thanks Prof, your continued efforts to bring our needs and desires to Champion is commendable. I do feel progress is in the wind and wave. For those's that might think that my one desire is to trash Champion, you are flat out wrong. I own a Champion C46540 that has never ever given me one moment of problem and operates my LCD HDTV/ monitor and PC with no add-on device. It sits in a Yellow and Black trimmed GENHOUSE/shop in a beautiful 60 dBA sound lowering enclosure. If I had a Champion flag, it would fly. My interest was/is for the RV community to have a 'TRUE VALUE' Chinese MFG RV genset. Yes, it would need to be Electric Start/remote controlled and 60 dBA or lower and have a Champion name. Is that to much to shoot for?

Floyd

It's funny, my 46540 doesn't have electric/remote start (not necessary), isn't 60 dBA or lower (mine meets all applicable standards no matter where I camp, but it does have the champion name. BUT, I do have a 'true value' Chinese Mfg RV genset. How come mine is 'true value' and yours isn't?

[CosmicVagabond]

professor95 wrote:

CosmicVagabon wrote:
but it helps me think that it's not just us CCC that feel it's relatively quiet.

Well, did he buy it or not?

You are right on the sound and it has absolutely nothing to do with a Champion Cheering Crowd.

Across the board, Champion is no louder or quieter than the Wildfire, WEN Power Pro, Pro Power, ELM3000, Nikota, UST, Onan Homesite, open frame Honda, Cummings, Chicago Pneumatic, DuroPower, Pro Force, Mac Tool, JD, Homier, Buffalo, etc,, etc,, etc. when it comes to the 3,000 watt GX200 class Chinese built open frame generators. They all use the same design of muffler, gas tank, engine shroud, fan, and air filter. Noise levels on these units fall below any similar classed Briggs & Stratton, Honda powered Northstar or Gentron. Powermate and Dewalt generators are no longer being made.

Yes he did. He liked the unit and felt like it was plenty quiet. I had used it for a year and got darn near retail for it. I had put a wheel kit on it though. If you keep em up looks like they will have good resale value.

[JConatser]

Old & Slow wrote:
...it would need to be Electric Start/remote controlled and 60 dBA or lower and have a Champion name. Is that to much to shoot for?...

I don't think it's too much to shoot for; I'd like to see it happen as well. A little birdie tells me it ain't gonna happen anytime soon, however---and most definitely not in the $300 price range.

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
My interest was/is for the RV community to have a 'TRUE VALUE' Chinese MFG RV genset. Yes, it would need to be Electric Start/remote controlled and 60 dBA or lower and have a Champion name. Is that to much to shoot for?

Nope - that would be nice.

IMHO it would require an entirely new engine design - possibly water cooled - to meet the power and sound target. EPA and CARB cert would be an expensive and long process for a new engine as well. New CARB standards coming up in 2010 will also be a real challenge. It is not improbable that sales of gensets in CA will be far and few between as builders decide it is not profitable to make a CA model. No crystal ball, but the challenges facing the small engine industry to attain CARB certification will require a new paradigm. Guess CA will go back to horses and goats to cut what grass there is - provided the new methane capture devices for their back ends pass CARB as well.

Hey.... maybe CA will mandate an electric powered generator? Sorry, I got carried away with that one. Batteries and inverters do currently exist. Guess you could drag around a 1,000 pounds of golf cart batteries to run a 3,000 watt inverter. Silent, too.

BTW - Honda has discontinued their RV genset line. Not enough sales/profit I guess - even after R&D and certification were complete.

The way fuel prices are rising, we may see fewer RV's to need gensets being sold as well. Sad state of affairs, isn't it?

Goodnight All.

[Hemiallen]

Thanks for the lowdown from Paul, Professor.

I realize Paul said what he hopes to add, electric remote start, but I suspect the over the counter, non deep discount's that allow some to say the Champion is a $300 generator is way off the remote start version.
I would wager a guess at a $750 price tag...???.... to consumers. When was the last time this unit was $300?

Thanks again
Allen

[Old___Slow]

All,

Well, the conscience of opinion is '$300 brings lots of dependable power for our use', be it at home or on the road with our RVs. Okay, I agree. Thanks Prof, your continued efforts to bring our needs and desires to Champion is commendable. I do feel progress is in the wind and wave. For those's that might think that my one desire is to trash Champion, you are flat out wrong. I own a Champion C46540 that has never ever given me one moment of problem and operates my LCD HDTV/ monitor and PC with no add-on device. It sits in a Yellow and Black trimmed GENHOUSE/shop in a beautiful 60 dBA sound lowering enclosure. If I had a Champion flag, it would fly. My interest was/is for the RV community to have a 'TRUE VALUE' Chinese MFG RV genset. Yes, it would need to be Electric Start/remote controlled and 60 dBA or lower and have a Champion name. Is that to much to shoot for?

Floyd

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
If the wave of the future is for RV folks to be satisfied with a genset operating @ 68 dBA within 21' then I will concede, fold my tent, crawl into my shell and silence my keyboard, forever. Yes, a dead horse should stink enough for me to smell the result. I'm to old to argue

Come on Floyd, no one is asking for that - certainly not me.

The 68dBA sound level is just not something easily resolved with this style of genny. It isn't a Champion issue, it's an industry wide issue.

I will continue to lobby for sound improvements. Personally, I believe it can be better. I have posted a simple dog house style noise abatement cover that can be folded and stored under the RV bed - yet the response has showed that it is not an item of major concern. If one wants to drop another 2-3 dBA or more, it works very well and only has a cost of a few dollars. I have also shown that sound reduction can be accomplished with a quilt or mover's pad laid across the top and side of the genset.
We have also demonstrated significant sound reduction by just placing the genset in the bed of a pickup. We have wrapped mufflers to reduce sound and placed fiber or cement board panels around the gensets. All are simple, cheap and effective in gaining an additional (and significant) noise reduction. Opportunities to drfop the sound levels of a $300 Chinese built genset 2-3 dBA or more abound and have been extensively shared on the forum. If an owner wants to lower sound levels, the methods are there for the taking.

We are not going to gain anything by continuing to gripe about the issue over and over. We need to move on to sharing more pertinent and and current Chinese genny info if this thread is to fullfill its reason for existing.

My comment about the dead horse had nothing to do with smell. My grandpaw used to tell me that when the horse was dead, it would do no good to keep whipping it to go - it wasn't going to get up no matter what.

I hope you noted in my interview that it looks like you will have your electric start kit, radio controlled remote start & stop with electric choke solenoid and retailers expanding their inventory to include cost conscious electric start models. These were items you frequently spoke of as desirable. I also posted a simple to build, low cost add on circuit to address your concern about AVR failure and overvoltage.

I (we) do hear you and are trying to address your concerns.

We can agree to disagree, can't we? Please, keep your keyboard dusted off and on your desktop. Nothing offensive was intended.

[Wgeorge11]

Randy.
I pray you won't find my "unformal" greeting to be too impertinent, Professor, but I just had to try it out. While I also call my wife "Judy", she too is called "professor" by her students and professional peers. Of course, I sometimes call her otherwise!
While the Kudos of acclaimed are still echoing through these hallowed cyber walls, I too shall join this chorus of 69+ dber's to say well done in pursuing issues with Paul and the little yellow machine!
At an age approaching the universal background noise level sometimes found in Richmond, NASCAR events, and other environs East of Eden (I think that's somewhere east of the big river), I've come to accept certain realities, and to acknowledge there ain't no gravity; the earth just sucks. BUT the sucking sound is unheard in that total vacuum of space. Like the proverbial tree falling in the forest, if you don't hear it, not to worry. And if it squeaks, oil it.

[JConatser]

Old & Slow wrote:
If the wave of the future is for RV folks to be satisfied with a genset operating @ 68 dBA within 21'...

I dare say you won't find any RV folks anywhere who are satisfied with that---I know I'm not. I am, however, part of the larger part of RV folks who are *willing to live* with a 68 dbA sound level if it means we only have to pay $300 for a genset that is capable of powering our RV. Remember, most RV folks aren't full-timers. By default this means that most of 'us ain't willing to pay big bucks for a 57 to 60 dbA genset that we know we'll only be using a few times a year. It's simply not economically feasible. 🙂