3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

in the case of 'soggy' ground a short auger rod 'might' work, but here is so calif right now, i wouldn't consider anything less than buried water pipe to actually work as a bonded earth ground.

[gramps1941]

Camping Woarld has a 30amp gfci for $110,club price $99.
part#18337.

gramps1941

[Oldfordman]

MrWizard wrote:
a portable gennys setting in the campground, or your built in RV genset is NOT bonded to a driven earth ground, there is NO zero volt ground reference, to create this safety factor that ground is supposed to be

Yes, it is the common practice to not ground a portable generator. HOWEVER, did anyone ever notice the part of the Champion Instructions that strongly recommends using a ground rod when operating the generator in areas of high water table.

Here in the Northwest there are days when the water table is at the surface of the soil and more is comming out of the sky.

There are many temporary ground rods that either pound in and out with a built in slide hammer or are simple rods with an auger point.

It just might not be a bad idea to have one in the "tool box" for safety. If you can't ground both the RV and the Generator, at least ground the generator frame. This will provide a ground for the power cord which will in turn ground the RV.

Safety is not time consuming, it is often Life Saving.

[JConatser]

professor95 wrote:
...it looks like Mr. Wizard and TKMJ are with me on the genset neutral bonding issue...

You are absolutely correct on the genset neutral bonding issue.

[TKMJ]

racefan1965 wrote:
First off I want to thank all of you electrically informed posters for all the information you have posted. I've learned quite a bit about electricity from all of you and just wanted to say Thank You. The information in this thread alone has been extremely valuable and helpful at times I needed help the most.
2nd... The GFI cord that TKMJ mentions. Do they make one with the RV plugs and 30 amp capacity or is a adapter needed? Seems to me that a problem could arise if you have to step your power cord down to a 30-15 adapter and then run it through a 15 amp GFI cord and then try to run 20 amps through it. Especially on long runs of 50feet or so. Am I being realistic or am I out in left field?

Rick

Rick, To be honest, I have never seen one with RV cord ends. However you could cut off the ends of the gfci cord set and replace them with RV cord ends. Also be aware that if you cut the ends the warrenty on the cordset will be void. Just something to consider. I would use the adapter and call it good.

On another note, the gfci cordsets are made for heavy construction use. They are very durable and can withstand a lot of punishment both mechanical and electrical. I have seen full concrete trucks run them over with out causing a problem.

[racefan1965]

Old & Slow wrote:
Wow, I'm on the short side of life but I did't like the idea of shorting out. I'LL looking looking at Ken's links to get the GFCI to place in the RV circuit. I can not thank all of you enough for your kind help. Something a little funny. I'm 73 and my wife is 42 but she prayed to God two years ago when the Doctors lost me in the cath lab with 100% blockage in the main pipe, that he would just leave me here. He did.She wouldn't like the idea of lost life because i didn't know about safty in the electric circut to the Rv.............O&S

I hear you O&S. My wife did some serious praying for me to when I died on the table twice during a 13 hours artery replacement surgery. And I'm only 42.

Rick

[racefan1965]

First off I want to thank all of you electrically informed posters for all the information you have posted. I've learned quite a bit about electricity from all of you and just wanted to say Thank You. The information in this thread alone has been extremely valuable and helpful at times I needed help the most.
2nd... The GFI cord that TKMJ mentions. Do they make one with the RV plugs and 30 amp capacity or is a adapter needed? Seems to me that a problem could arise if you have to step your power cord down to a 30-15 adapter and then run it through a 15 amp GFI cord and then try to run 20 amps through it. Especially on long runs of 50feet or so. Am I being realistic or am I out in left field?

Rick

[Old___Slow]

Wow, I'm on the short side of life but I didn't like the idea of shorting out. I'LL looking at Ken's links to get the GFCI to be added in the RV circuit. I can not thank all of you enough for your kind help. Something a little funny. I'm 73 and my wife is 42 but she prayed to God two years ago when the Doctors lost me in the cath lab with 100% blockage in the main pipe, that he would just leave me here. He did.She wouldn't like the idea of lost life because I didn't know about safety in the electric circuit to the Rv.............O&S

[TKMJ]

professor95 wrote:

TKMJ wrote:
Professor95,

Better take another look at the pictures. The hot side of of both 120volt recepticals are bonded together while the neutral (t-slot) of each receptical goes to the breakers on opposing phases. Hence when a volt meter is applied to the neutral slot of both recepticals 240 volts is achieved.

OK. That was not evident to my eyeballs when I looked. Thanks for the update and additional detail. Sorry you had to get one of the bad gensets.

They slap those gensets together so fast in China that I wonder how many others are mis-wired out in use. This is something to consider when you purchase one. CHECK the outlets before use! Make sure it is wired correctly.

[professor95]

TKMJ wrote:
There are 3 terminals on a gfci receptical just like a standard grounded outlet. 120 volts flows from the hot side of the receptical thru the load (motor, lightbulb, etc) and back into the neutral line to complete the path just like any receptical. Voltage can be measured on both the hot and nuetral side of the receptical. That voltage must match exactly within a few milivolts. For example if 120 volts goes out of the receptical on the hot, 120 volts must come back on the neutral. If there is a difference in voltage by a few milivolts the gfci will trip to a fault condition. So if 120 volts goes out thru the load and 119 volts comes back, Where did that one volt go? The anwser is to ground or maybe the frame of the coach because it didn't go back to the neutral. The gfci senses this mismatched voltage and trips. The ground terminal is actually not needed to trip the gfci. This is why you can put a gfci receptical in an old home where there is no ground wire to the recepticals.

Not exactly. But, as they say, close enough for government work. The GFCI actually compares current, not voltage. In any event, if the current in both lines are not equal it shuts down the circuit immediately. That is the important concept.

It is also beneficial to note that a GFCI is great for protecting us when using older style wiring that did not have the third or grounding wire. The grounding wire is there and it is preferred that we use it, but the GFCI does not measure this wire or need it to operate.

To Old & Slow, for an RV, the GFCI would go between the power source and the RV power cord. I'll post a photo of mine tomorrow.

[professor95]

TKMJ wrote:
Professor95,

Better take another look at the pictures. The hot side of of both 120volt recepticals are bonded together while the neutral (t-slot) of each receptical goes to the breakers on opposing phases. Hence when a volt meter is applied to the neutral slot of both recepticals 240 volts is achieved.

OK. That was not evident to my eyeballs when I looked. Thanks for the update and additional detail. Sorry you had to get one of the bad gensets.

[TKMJ]

TKMJ wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
I'm old and slow you know by now. The RV GFCI, in what location is it placed in the circuit.

The coach should be plugged into a gfci receptical via the shoreline. If one is not available at your campsite, you can purchase an inline gfci cord set. The cordset is about one foot long and has a male plug at one end and a female cord end at the other. Some are a box with a mail pigtale. Plug the cordset into the receptical and your shorline into the female end of the gfci cordset. When using a genset, the gfci cordset should be used to protect you and the coach. Remember a GFCI does not need a ground to work correctly. I will lookup some cordsets for you with prices at places like Home Depot and Lowes. You need not pay the price of a RV store.

O&S, Lowes part number on the gfci cordset is Item #: 145277 Model: 30338062 It costs about $30. We use them at work and I have one in my coach just in case the power I plug into isn't GFCI protected.

[professor95]

wpoling wrote:
Tell that to my TWO television sets!! I measured 190 volts on my second AVR failure. My first went to zero. I'm looking into a surge supressor to protect the entire system to surges AND high voltage.

Most so called low cost surge suppressors use a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) and a capacitor or two. They are not going to clip at 190 volts.

Right off the top of my head, I can recall several circuit possibilities using cheap operational amplifiers (like the LM741) as a voltage comparator to shut down the system if there is an overvoltage. If you are really serious about pursuing this, I will be glad to work with you on the project.

[professor95]

Well, it looks like Mr. Wizard and TKMJ are with me on the genset neutral bonding issue and use of a GFCI. Thanks for the support.

Also to wpoling. Like I said I learn a lot from this forum. Now I do have confirmation that the AVR can fail in a manner that causes a high voltage condition. My initial experiments and findings did not show this to be likely. Now I know different and will look at the beast again. Two television sets? Must have been older units without switching power supplies. Shucks, isn't it time for a new digital tuner model anyway? 🙂

[TKMJ]

Old & Slow wrote:
I'm old and slow you know by now. The RV GFCI, in what location is it placed in the circuit.

The coach should be plugged into a gfci receptical via the shoreline. If one is not available at your campsite, you can purchase an inline gfci cord set. The cordset is about one foot long and has a male plug at one end and a female cord end at the other. Some are a box with a mail pigtale. Plug the cordset into the receptical and your shorline into the female end of the gfci cordset. When using a genset, the gfci cordset should be used to protect you and the coach. Remember a GFCI does not need a ground to work correctly. I will lookup some cordsets for you with prices at places like Home Depot and Lowes. You need not pay the price of a RV store.