3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[nsbat7]

I also have a few grounding questions. I have the Powermate ProForce 3125
and the primary use if for power outage from storms (Miami) and to go camping a few times a year. I do not have and RV and if there is a power outage I'm not going to connect the generator to the house electric system, I'm just going to connect the basic utensils to an extension cord. Here are the questions...
1. How do I ground the generator in the house to use with an extension cord?
2. How do I ground the generator to use camping without an RV?
3. Do I need the copper rod?
4. I have a metal (I think is steel) construction rod 3' long, can I use that one if I need none at all?
5. How much $$$ is a digital monitor and where can I buy it? (Home Depot?)

Thanks

Nestor

[MrWizard]

CabanaBoy wrote:
I googled "generator grounding bonding" and found this site...it gives several pictorial examples of generators and whether or not they need their own grounding rod.
Generator Grounding

from the website

If the generator neutral is grounded then the generator can only be used with a transfer switch that transfers the neutral, or as a stand alone generator for a carnival or special even, and then ground rods are required.If the generator neutral is grounded then the generator can only be used with a transfer switch that transfers the neutral, or as a stand alone generator for a carnival or special even, and then ground rods are required.


ground rods are required for generators with bonded netural

[cicamper]

I googled "generator grounding bonding" and found this site...it gives several pictorial examples of generators and whether or not they need their own grounding rod.
Generator Grounding

[W7SFO]

I added a dedicated 30a RV outlet to my Powermate generator today. If anyone cares you can view pictures of the project here.

[Gene-C]

Talked to the supervise at Parts America today and pleaded my case about the 15% discount coupon as stated by thw240 in an earlier post. He took about 30 seconds and refunded to my account the discount. I'm a happy camper now.
I ran the Champion today for about 45 min and after a break in time I hooked it to the RV and turned on the AC. It handeled it fine. I had 118 volts unloaded and with the air it dropped to 116 volts. After about 15 min I turned on the Microwave. It went to 109 volts. I think that is acceptable for a short period of time. When the Micro timed out it went back to 116 volts. I will check it again after I get a few hours on it.
Next project it to quiet it down some. It sounds to me that most of the noise is coming from the engine itself and not the exhaust. If the exhaust was extended outside of an enclosure and the muffler relocated outside I believe it would greatly reduce the noise and reduce the heat build up inside. That is about what Honda has done with their quiet generators. I will be working on this theory and post as I go along. I work slow so be patient.

Gene-C

[madbare]

I know for a house that any service entrance box must have the ground and neutral bonded together. Any sub-panel beyond that must keep them seperate. I do not see why it would be any different with a generator because the generator is now the service equipment.

[Ready_ToRoll]

O.K., I just went out and tested the 120v outlets on my (Costco) PowerWise 3000w.

Not running, voltage switch to 120v. Meter on 200 ohm range:
ground to chassis 0.8 ohm
neutral to chassis 0.8 ohm
hot to chassis 1.0 ohm

Not running, voltage switch to OFF. Meter on 200K ohm range:
ground to chassis 0.0 ohm
neutral to chassis >200K ohm
hot to chassis >200K ohm

Running, voltage switch to 120v. Meter on 200 vac range:
ground to chassis 0 v
neutral to chassis varies 0 to 3 v
hot to chassis 122.5 v

So, it looks like the grounded neutral is a design flaw in the PowerWise generator, and not just a problem with Cloudswrest's unit.

If someone does a fix on their Powerwise, please post a description here so that I might do the same.

Also, sorry for previously posting a link to a document that may have been mis-leading. I (should) know better than to cite a single sentence without checking the actual codes.

Bruce

Edit: When I use the word "chassis" I mean the generator frame. I am not connected to the trailer.

[cloudswrest]

Ready?ToRoll wrote:

Cloudswrest,
You may want to look at this OSHA Fact Sheet Grounding Requirements for Portable Generators If I read it correctly (that's a risky bet 🙂 ), the last paragraph on pg.2 calls for the neutral to be bonded to the generator frame.

I found this link in a reply from "vermilye" in another thread Generator Grounding Thread

I'm interested because I have the PowerWise also.

Bruce

I believe it should be grounded at some point, but if you're connecting it to your house there (should) is already a single point ground somewhere. In this situation you now have a multi-point GND and risk tripping GFIs and/or having inadverdent GND return currents.

Cloudswrest (another Bruce)

[thw420]

Here's a copy of the coupon for everyone that has a Kragen's nearby.

JPG of 15% off coupon.

[Gene-C]

I just got off the phone to Parts America about the discount coupon for 15% off w/code number MLBD as posted by THw420 for the Champion Gen C46540. They said they did not have any such coupon. If anyone else has used this discount please post and let us know where you found the coupon and help us whith this discount.

Gene-C

[toprudder]

MrWizard wrote:
now logic circuits are something i have experience with

and the 7404 is a 5 volt device designed to invert a signal

but it is NOT a load carrying device

I doubt it would survie the first time it tried to ground the ignition of the motor to turn it off, once it burned out, it would be same as not being there

the circuit would need to be a little more elaborate,

switching on a transistor or SCR to ground the ignition

maybe a solid state thermo-sensor could be used

My thoughts as well. The 7404 would need a 5v filtered supply, which would probably have to be available BEFORE the generator starts, so that it CAN start. Then it would have to drive a relay whose contacts are in the shutoff circuit.

I would think a simple transistor circuit would be a little easier and more robust for this application.

Bob R.

[flamingoland]

dash8wrench wrote:
Congrats to everyone that is getting on the bandwagon.

As for sound attenuation, I'm going to try some of the egg crate foam lining a box made of bathroom surround paneling.

because i live in RI, i'm very sensitive to stuff involving that foam lining, please be sure it is fire resistant, that's how all those people (and a couple of my friends) died in the station nightclub fire here a couple of years ago

[MrWizard]

professor95 wrote:

dash8wrench & MrWizard wrote:


Here's a thought to chew on...

With the low oil shut off most of these units have and some of us considering enclosures, what are your thoughts about using an appropriately rated Klixon temp switch for thermal protection for the generator head in the shut down circuit? Just allow for the switch to be normally open and then closed to ground when in an overtemp situation.


nice idea ( if you can find one )

i know all the ones I see in the surplus catalogs are normally closed and open at temp

seems they all come from coffee makers or other heating devices

Why not pop a 7404 Hex Inverter onto a small perf board after the NC device? Cheap. Easy to build. Will allow a NC device to behave like a NO device. If you need a circuit, I can give you one.

now logic circuits are something i have experience with

and the 7404 is a 5 volt device designed to invert a signal

but it is NOT a load carrying device

I doubt it would survie the first time it tried to ground the ignition of the motor to turn it off, once it burned out, it would be same as not being there

the circuit would need to be a little more elaborate,

switching on a transistor or SCR to ground the ignition

maybe a solid state thermo-sensor could be used

[MrWizard]

we had a big thread, about 2 weeks ago

about this bonding of the neutral to the genny frame, RV frame,

unless you are stationary and driving a an 8ft or longer ground rod

the neutral should NOT be grounded-bonded to the frame of the portable genset

because this makes the generator frame and more importanly the TT frame part of the load carrying hot circuit, because with 120 volts the neutral is a load carring wire ( the return to the source )

this is a life and death safety issue

[Ready_ToRoll]

cloudswrest wrote:

professor95 wrote:

cloudswrest wrote:
One thing I noticed, and it is not shown in the schematic, is the bottom terminal of the top winding (white wire) is wired to chassis ground in the generator (not in the switch panel.) So neutral on the 120V outlets is shorted to chassis GND.

I hope this is not true and you are looking at a wire for the 12 volt winding or the regulator control winding. Have you made some resistance measurments with an ohm meter to be sure? If it is true, it should be disconnected and allowed to float. Only the green or green/yellow wire should be attached to the chassi. Having the white wire (AKA neutral) on the chassi is a dangerous situation.

Is true. Measured with an ohmmeter as well as saw it visually. For the 120V outlet the GND terminal measures shorted to the neutral terminal. When the generator is on the meter measures 120VAC from Hot to GND (and chassis). I plan to get out there and rewire it when the weather cools off, although the cheesy schematic doesn't show the field cicuitry, only the armature circuit, so I don't yet know if the field circuit relies on the neutral to chassis connection.

Cloudswrest

Cloudswrest,
You may want to look at this OSHA Fact Sheet Grounding Requirements for Portable Generators If I read it correctly (that's a risky bet 🙂 ), the last paragraph on pg.2 calls for the neutral to be bonded to the generator frame.

I found this link in a reply from "vermilye" in another thread Generator Grounding Thread

I'm interested because I have the PowerWise also.

Bruce