3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

Whew....... I've been sweating that one out! I am really glad #2 worked out for Joel.

I'm still waiting to see what the problem was. Paul (at CPE) will let me know once it makes it back to him in California.

This "Who owns the CPE plant" stuff has really gotten out of hand. It was started by one writer for reasons I have yet to understand. I have known since the beginning of CPE and stated so on this thread that there is a plant on the campus of a larger plant that CPE OWNS. The CPE name is on the building. The employees are hired and paid by CPE. The larger facility around it does not sell American. What is the deal? I guess someone has the impression American's cannot own a facility in China? Get real, China is the most Capitalistic Communist country in the world. Companies of all nations have built factories and warehouses all over China with their money that are under their control (with approval of the Chinese Government - of course).

What is next? Maybe we will have an discussion over if those were real men on the moon in '69 or it was all faked. Or maybe was the '57 Chevy really built by Fiat? Who knows?

[jlaustin]

AVR & COOLING DUCT REDUX!

The computer server fans that "worked so well" to cool the alternator apparently had some sort of thermal shut-down and one fan (closest to the muffler exhaust) suffered a failure and I suspect a short. They were never intended to function in the environment I put them in ... "alternator hell":E

When I lost the cooling, I lost the AVR. You already know how DuroPower felt about that! HA! Randy happened to have a spare Champion AVR and sent that to me. (THANKS!) The Champion AVR is a much better part ... larger, ribbed surface area and metal rather than plastic case - all should contribute to cooling the AVR and heat-sinking it. Although the connector plugs were wired differently (and the DuroPower manual's schematic had no bearing with reality of wire colors, anyway!), the Prof suggested it would probably be harmless to connect it up and see if I got the correct voltage and NO SMOKE! I tried it and got 120v unloaded and 119v with the 15K BTU A/C connected!:C Here's a few pics:

DuroPower AVR:


Champion AVR mounted on alternator:


DuroPower AVR connector on top, Champion AVR connector below:


Once that checked out OK, I installed my latest cooling duct design. I went with a 124 cfm single 12v fan. I "think" this fan is "dumb" and does not have any thermal shutdown sensors to trigger an unexpected shutdown! I extended the duct to get the fan out from under the metal enclosure panel and also put some aluminum stick-on insulation (the kind used to protect floorboards from catalytic converter heat) along the side of the duct facing the exhaust. I also fab'd a rain hood for the fan that I will trim out with some vinyl edge trim later. A grill has been ordered to keep fingers out of the blades:


The exhaust is (unintentionally!) angled in the direction of the duct - I did this because it was cooking the bumper mount and had to take it in to a welding shop to get the exhaust pipe welded and that's what I got! It definitely was heating the duct, so in addition to the insulation, I happened to have a deflector (that I never use) that goes on the end of a heat gun. I clamped this to the tailpipe and now it deflects the exhaust away from the duct and disperses it - a definite improvement:


Here's what it looks like all buttoned up:



But this picture is the best ... that indicated temp is the cooling exhaust from the alternator after running the 15K BTU A/C for about 30 minutes: :C (pun intended!)


I also finished up my automatic transfer switch on my FW. I took a 30 amp cord, plugged one end into the genset and ran the cord under the FW to the compartment where all the power connections are. Connected the other end to an IOTA ITS-30R automatic transfer switch. The generator has priority over the shore line - if you start the generator, it waits about 20-30 seconds for it to stabilize and then transfers the genset's power to the FW and cuts out the shore line. Works great!

Regards,
John

[Old___Slow]

Joel,

Congrats on the new Champion. I guess the first one was a bad penny. Hope you will do the same test for noise as with the first one. We all want to believe the new EPA standards have been met with no increase in noise with full load. Do you hear no noise coming from the muffler breather? If no noise, Champion is a true winner and the new model will go on my wish list. I understand the RF remote control will soon be offered as a add on. That will go nicely with the Electric Start I have added to my C46540. That will be excellent. One more question. Will the new Champion be used with the VW van?

Floyd

[joelchappell]

Well if you have been following any of my previous posts you know that I first purchased a Lifan ES3500 generator. It was very quiet. Electric start. But the gas tank had a crack. And the electrical box was coming apart. I returned it to Homedepot, but there were no more to be had.

I emailed LifanUSA to inquire about where I could order another. It's been 5 weeks and still no response.

I then ordered a CHampion 46538. Battery was loose in the box, and a couple of other little things. But it ran great. However there was a clatter in the top end that I could not get around, so I returned it.

I looked into Duropower. The 3500ES model. John had some goo success with it. I was just about to pull the trigger and order one, when I saw some negative responses from Duropower customer service. So I emailed an inquiry to Duropower and to this day I have heard nothing.

So on June 25th I ordered another Champion 46538, as the Professor and others have reported good success without the clatter. It arrived yesterday (June 30th), just 5 days after I ordered it.

While I was waiting for it to arrive, we all heard the report of the Duropower warranty (Or warranty denial policy). I consider that a near miss.

I pulled the Champion out this morning. The battery was bolted down. Everything looked neater if that makes sense. I oiled it up and put a little fuel in it, cranked it and no clatter. I don't know what was up with the 1st one, but this one is definitely different.

I didn't have time to play with it very long as I have to get to the office. But I ran it long enough to believe my generator saga can move on into the application stage.

There has been a lot of discussion about how American CPE is, and whether they own the factory or utilize the factory. I have experience with a similar situation. I had a business previously where I sold a particular product. I bought them from American companies at wholesale and resold at retail.

As I researched the backgrounds of these companies, many of them considered to be a bedrock American company, I found that 90% were coming from China.

I did further research and was able to get setup to do business with the same factories in China these companies were using. I then branded the product with my name. The advantage was that I was able to work with the factory to spec my product exactly the way I wanted it produced. After back and forth for several months I had 3 models I was very happy with, and were better than what I had been buying.

I did not own the factory. But I had total control over the production of my products, where I had none before.

All of that to say, I am not terribly concerned with CPE's factory arrangement. In 2010 it is becoming a normal business model for a company to have products produced in CHina. There is a difference between rebranding a china product, and having a custom product built. What I see in the Champion line is unique features, strong customer support, and a well built product. Just my 2 cents.

Here are pix of the new one.

[joelchappell]

mrfixit454 wrote:
Check out this comment,... another one like Joel's?

Hit reviews tab and then Scroll down to 1st review


http://tiny.cc/3ypro

Just FYI. I didn't post any review on Costco's website.

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:
The JB is awesome. Have used it for years to fix all kinds of stuff like this. If you follow directions, you will be amazed at how strong of a bond it creates.

The reason it's so great and a little-known fact is that JB Weld is simply melted Duct Tape!;)

Regards,
John

[mrfixit454]

Check out this comment,... another one like Joel's?

Hit reviews tab and then Scroll down to 1st review


http://tiny.cc/3ypro

[mrfixit454]

Thanks guys.. yes JB is the best. I also thought about making another bracket out of flat stock and attaching it to the muffler mount down to the original rubber mount. I'll post my final fix when complete. Your tips are greatly appreciated.

[professor95]

mrfixit454 wrote:
Thanks gentlemen with the info on the diffferences between 5 year old technology and todays. This ELIM has been shelved for 5 years after it was broken in. I received it in damaged condition, ended up keeping it, and now my sister-in-law needs a gen for some dry camping this summer. I need a new gen cover/mount or if this can be welded I may do that. Or I need to look at other ways to change/modify this mount.

Thanks,
Fixit

There is nothing wrong with John's solution, but here is another one.



Where the red line is represents a steel piece as wide as the mount cut and bent to the shape shown. It could be a steel strap or L bracket from Lowe's or HD.

The green arrow, of course, shows how the bracket should attach to the broken piece. If you want, drill a hole through the steel into the alternator stub and tap it for a screw. This will add to the strength, but is kinda overkill.

Now, here is the kicker. Get some JB Weld. DO NOT get another brand! Clean the metal surfaces with spray carburetor cleaner and let it evaporate until dry. Coat the bottom of the broken piece with JB as well as where it broke and stick it all to the steel piece you made.

Let it cure at least 12 hours. Drill a hole for the mount stud and let her rip!

Welding will not work (well). The casting material melts at a low temperature.

The JB is awesome. Have used it for years to fix all kinds of stuff like this. If you follow directions, you will be amazed at how strong of a bond it creates.

The other option is to just put a piece of soft wood under the end of the alternator to support it at the frame.

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:

I have tried to improve on this idea and hope it's okay with Prof'. In the picture, maybe the gen is set to far to the rear?

My present enclosure is constructed using 1x2's for framing, 30" long, 24" wide and 20" high. Using what is available at Home Depot, the black 4x8 sheet of 'QuietBoard' ~ 'SoundStop' board is coming soon. Now comes the fun. Trying to stop the heat recirculation from the hot engine air blowing out over the genhead and muffler that enters the genhead. Using Prof's idea of the coffee can, this idea has worked. Use the coffee can, leaving the outer end in place and cutting a slit 1 1/2" wide by 4" up one side, turn the can, 110 degrees to the left for air intake. This helped with the problem of hot air recirculation into the genhead. Lining the can with carpet will help lower noise. Air intake for the engine was baffled by using the quietboard.
Testing continues with using a top and no additional fan. This is questionable but with leaving the muffler end open it works. Will get the meter out soon and also test the 3'x 4' rubber one side, carpet the other side DUR-A-BULL mat from Lowe's.

Floyd

You are doing fine, Floyd. Anything you want to improve. Yes, the gen in the photo is a little too far back. Have you looked at my totally amateur video of the gen in a cardboard enclosure? The link is posted a few back. On that one the gen is forward and I make a comment that it should be there for proper cooling. As long as exhaust does not get back into the box the genny seems to do fine heat wise. I would be extremely cautions on a really hot day with constant AC use. Maybe allow the box to be elevated a few inches off the ground - like with scrap 2x4 blocks so air can get in and out. Also wonder about a 8" hole in the top over the recoil starter as being something that would help cooling without compromising sound reduction. Shucks - just the sides without the top would make a difference.

Keep experimenting!

[jlaustin]

mrfixit454 wrote:
I need a new gen cover/mount or if this can be welded I may do that. Or I need to look at other ways to change/modify this mount.

Looks like a really "quick and dirty" method to modify that broken mount would be to totally remove the distal broken-off piece and the rubber dampener, etc., cut a piece of stiff rubber hose like heater hose with an inner diameter that will just force up onto the broken stub off the alternator head, secure with a hose clamp and either let the other end just ride on top of the U-channel metal support underneath or you could cut the end of the hose on a bevel and put a bolt through the extreme right end and through the U-channel support underneath to secure it.

Not elegant, but it would be ultra-cheap and still give some vibration dampening!

Regards,
John

[mrfixit454]

Thanks gentlemen with the info on the diffferences between 5 year old technology and todays. This ELIM has been shelved for 5 years after it was broken in. I received it in damaged condition, ended up keeping it, and now my sister-in-law needs a gen for some dry camping this summer. I need a new gen cover/mount or if this can be welded I may do that. Or I need to look at other ways to change/modify this mount.




Thanks,
Fixit

[Old___Slow]

Aman! Champion wins with CS.

[jlaustin]

FAMOUS LAST WORDS, PART II !!!


Well, I "asked for it" and stated I had no problems with the DuroPower genset and the AVR failed that day! I submitted a RMA/Warranty claim to DuroPower, and guess what, they have an

INCREDIBLE DUROPOWER WARRANTY !!!

Here's the response to my claim:

Hello Sir, Sorry but AVR's are not a warranty part.
You can order another from our web site, if not sure which one to order please forward a picture of the AVR to service@duropower.com and we can direct to you to which one to order.

This warranty does not extend to consumable parts such as air, oil or fuel filters, fuel cut off valves, batteries, tires, sparkplugs, brushes, fuel injection nozzle valves, lubricant, fuses, rubber feet, receptacles or ignition plugs. As such, all expenses incurred in maintaining and replacing these consumable parts fall on the purchaser.There will be no returns, exchanges, or refunds on all parts orders. All sales final. Minor cosmetic damages that do not impact the operation or safety of the unit are expressly excluded from the warranty. Specifically, this warranty does not cover damage to plastic or outer parts. If such a part is damaged when you receive it, please refer to “Damaged Shipment Policy”.
Damage to voltage regulators caused by failure to ground, short or overloading a generator product is not covered under the warranty.
Batteries supplied with any generator product should be considered a bonus item and not covered under warranty. Batteries can be damaged by shock, shorting terminals, heat, acid spillage and a number of other factors that can not be controlled after it has left our facility. Spillage of acid as corrosion or damage caused by battery acid is not covered by warranty.
Disclaimer of Consequential Damage and Limitation of Implied Warranties
We disclaim any responsibility for the loss of time or use for product, transportation, commercial loss, or any other incidental or consequential damage. Any implied warranties are limited to the duration of the written limited warranty.


Yep, that's right, it's an incredible warranty, an incredibly bad warranty !!! I guess an AVR is a "consumable part", just like "fuel cut-off valves" and "receptacles" - hmmmm, lessseee, hasn't the most frequent parts to fail been AVR's and fuel cut-off valves????

But, as Fox News says, "Fair and balanced - we report - you decide!"

Now I realize I was testing a considerably modified genset when the AVR failed, so it's not the cost of the part that burns me, it's just that this "warranty" is not the one published in the back of my owner's manual ... it says it covers "material and workmanship" for one year and does not mention any exclusions whatsoever. There is a principle involved somewhere !!!

Well, one thing I got correct ... I said "all things being equal, I would buy a Champion because of their support."


Regards,
John

[Old___Slow]

bill h wrote:

professor95 wrote:

I like that. It kinda makes me want to repeat my hog house kluge made from Celotex Soundstop and duct tape. It had both ends open, but I leaned some board against each end to block sound but still allow some air in and out.

If you were on this edge of the continent, we could make an event out of it. Test 'em with the same meter in the same environment. All we would need would be a bartender and a grillemeister.

Mine is lighter, though. ........No anvil.

.

I have tried to improve on this idea and hope it's okay with Prof'. In the picture, maybe the gen is set to far to the rear?

My present enclosure is constructed using 1x2's for framing, 30" long, 24" wide and 20" high. Using what is available at Home Depot, the black 4x8 sheet of 'QuietBoard' ~ 'SoundStop' board is coming soon. Now comes the fun. Trying to stop the heat recirculation from the hot engine air blowing out over the genhead and muffler that enters the genhead. Using Prof's idea of the coffee can, this idea has worked. Use the coffee can, leaving the outer end in place and cutting a slit 1 1/2" wide by 4" up one side, turn the can, 110 degrees to the left for air intake. This helped with the problem of hot air recirculation into the genhead. Lining the can with carpet will help lower noise. Air intake for the engine was baffled by using the quietboard.
Testing continues with using a top and no additional fan. This is questionable but with leaving the muffler end open it works. Will get the meter out soon and also test the 3'x 4' rubber one side, carpet the other side DUR-A-BULL mat from Lowe's.

Floyd