Battle Born Lithium

[obiwancanoli]

In my research to learn more about Lithium batteries, and replacing the flooded 6V's in my rig, I just discovered Battle Born Lithium Batteries (Reno, NV) will soon be introducing a 250Ah battery, due sometime later Fall, or early Winter... no pricing yet...

[pianotuna]

3 tons,

But I want 480 usable--so six sio2 100 amp jars for me.

[3_tons]

I mounted my 200a/h LiFePo4 in the camper’s interior and repurposed the battery box - problem solved, power up the kazoo 🙂

3 tons

[JTLance]

Itinerant1 wrote:
I would think with all the batteries Battleborn has given to youtubers and bloggers with high eyeball counts they wouldn't need to make a self promoting "white paper"... lame.

Comparing their lfp to AGM in said "test" isn't really much of a test. Lfp are better except when getting down in the extreme cold, nothing new there.

If Battleborn wanted to self promote they should of put their batteries up against other lfp brands on the market not lead chemistry. JMHO 🙂

I 100% agree with you, but I certainly wouldn't ever expect that. 🙂

[JTLance]

FWC, you are right on!

BB is ridiculously over-priced for such a small AH battery. They have sold their soul to so many "internet Influencers" in order to peddle their over-priced batteries... It is kinda pathetic really.

I loved your post to them. They ABSOLUTELY glossed over their inherent charging problem. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I speak with about switching to lithium (those not up to speed) is all about being bad to charge in cold weather!

Yup, BB is loosing momemtum for sales, LIKE FAST! So many other people bring up their costs too. All you really have to do is internet searches and BB pricing is said how much more having them are "worth it". But then many many more people say, hey, they are are like splitting hairs with practical application for most people. Similar warranties on different brand batteries now exist, and their pricing is for $100's less.

I know, let's do some quick marketing ploy!!! Please, we aren't all that stupid, or gullible to put a finer point on it.

Nope, the masses are leaning. Good 'ole internet strikes again. 🙂

[FWC]

I think Battle Born may be in for some trouble even without their dodgy marketing. While they were out in front first, the price of raw LiFePO cells has dropped dramatically, much like solar cells. Battleborn has not adjusted their prices to reflect this, and it is only a matter of time before the value equation bests the marketing equation.

The raw cells for 100Ah battery pack are down to < $150, and a more sophisticated BMS can be had for another $40. I am not sure what the injection molded plastic box would go for (this is the 'assembled in USA' part of Battle Born) but it can't be more than a few $. 100Ah batteries that are in the $300 - $400 range are probably not far off.

[deltabravo]

obiwancanoli wrote:
Battle Born Lithium Batteries (Reno, NV) will soon be introducing a 250Ah battery, due sometime later Fall, or early Winter... no pricing yet...

Figure on probably $2000+

[Itinerant1]

I would think with all the batteries Battleborn has given to youtubers and bloggers with high eyeball counts they wouldn't need to make a self promoting "white paper"... lame.

Comparing their lfp to AGM in said "test" isn't really much of a test. Lfp are better except when getting down in the extreme cold, nothing new there.

If Battleborn wanted to self promote they should of put their batteries up against other lfp brands on the market not lead chemistry. JMHO 🙂

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Don, Sandia is one of the diety battery testing (and everyhing else) laboratories in the world.

But a reader has to scrutinize every single parameter of the test parameters at the beginning of a white paper.

This Sandia test is *only* valid for 0% antimony lead calcium chemistry. I know of no way to cherry pick nuggets of important information from this white paper for antimony alloyed batteries. The data difference can be startling. I found no errors in the text (no surprise) as applied to sealed lead calcium or unalloyed pure lead (much rarer) batteries like the Panasonic, Powersonic, et al. Sealed LA battery.

Because consumer grade sealed batteries utilize 1.300 SG electrolyte it skews every single performance point that follows. The calcium or pure lead composition does the same thing.

Temperature scales are distorted because of the different plate compositions.

The pure lead or antimony allow positions the battery closer to Absorbed Glass Mat characteristic than lead antimony. Closer does not mean close.
***
The vendor who I represented sold dozens of pallets of these batteries to NASA and the USAF The batteries utilized strict Sandia protocol for usage and maintenance therefore we had near zero aftersale work to do. The batteries did not make me a nickel.

These batteries have since been obsoleted and replaced by far superior in cycling use Glass mat Concorde batteries.

Back to the original issue
When I received a white paper, I studied it for a few days. Frequently I woke up in bed with the the sheaf plasted on my face. When I did the NASA dual voltage chase vehicles I had to present white papers to them for analysis. What sold the job was ingenuity of reverting the vehicle back ro factory original condition without curtting wires, replacing terminals, changing mounting brackets or even the serpentine belt. A bunch of stuff was removed from the Chevrolet one ton utility bed trucks but modifications could not be detected with a magnifying glass. This level of engineering cost them plenty. The alternators were 4800 Leece Neville 160 amp 24 volt, with Transpo 911-24 Emergency Vehicle voltage regulators.

The Battle Borne system is costly enough to allow some degree of surrender to quality. Something as complicated as a management system makes me suspicious that their origin is on the Far East. Not necessarily china. Thailand or perhaps Indonesia or India. Maybe South Korea. Even Taiwan. A to D and D to A interfaces are not cheap and neither is the programming or discretes for power.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

It is the fact they call something a white paper when it isn't Don. And a majority of overnight camping uses an average draw based on a heater fan draw. Then when the battery is well drained in the morning, the owner is supposed to drive without expecting the vehicle alternator to miracle sense the lithium component and drop it out of circuit?

Or, they expect a demand for a disposible battery like usage? OK to discharge then spit?

If someone came to me asking to credential a white paper with criteria like that I would be polite, offer him a cup of coffee then escort him to the gate.

I remarked in my earlier comedic scenario that the CEO was the primary originator of a Marx Bros. grade farce.

White papers are never based on a board game chutes and ladders based list of perrogitives.

CEO's of battery manufacturing companies are either themselves *documented* chemical and electrical engineers or they hire a cadre of staff engineers whom they trust. The bigger the company the more they can pay or expand their staff.

[pianotuna]

Mex,

The young man in the video is the CEO/owner of battleborn.

It would have been fairer if they had cycled each bank 30 times before doing this rather arbitrary test.

As I do use my RV at -37 c (-34 f), I wish they had done a demand test at -40.

Here is an interesting pdf.

https://prod-ng.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2004/043149.pdf

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Pianotuna, is one of the extremely few people here that read one of my White Papers. I created perhaps a dozen and only a single example survived, the paper ones were dissolved in the thirty years since their creation. The online paper had to obey every law while explaining the test, the apparatus, and the validity of the results. But the location URL link must remain unidentified. I signed so many NDA's Non Disclosure Agreements It felt like I was going deep into Area 51.

The creation of a White Paper is the culmunation of discipline. Utter neutrality is demanded.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

OPINION

The subject in question has the aroma of one who signs the checks walking into a conference room and announcing "Our sales target for last quarter was off by (twenty) percent. Cold weather operation seems to be our market's biggest objection to purchasing. Absorbed Glass Mat is our biggest opposition.

So frightened engineers retreated and managed to draft up a genuine performance document. They turned it into management,

Management stared at the formula laden paper and eyes bulged.

This is incomprehensensible to me, never mind to our prospective market.

Do Something! Images of pink slips danced above the conference table.

The boys in the fluorescent shirts and paisley ties grabbed the engineering report. "We can save the day and perhaps our jobs"

Tah! Dah!


(Going into this I had to promise myself to not damage my heart or occlude arteries by temperamental explosion. The White Paper was so inept it gave itself away)

[MEXICOWANDERER]

• The format of their "paper" violates more than a dozen "white paper" rules
• Rules that must be obeyed or render the paper worthless
• It all starts with lack of origin of sample #2
• It continues with lack of specifications such as weight for all samples
• It omits voltages
• It omits the BCI accepted amp hour range starting with the 100-hour rate working down to C5
• The paper does not adequately caution the reader that attempted recharging has a defined scale:i.e. A recharge rate of constant amperage example 2 amperes would be acceptable a X degrees.
  
  

[pianotuna]

FWC,

I'm sorry to hear that news. I'll never own LiFePO4 batteries, so I have no skin in the game.

The video appears to be incorrect.

[FWC]

Battle born just released a 'White Paper' on using their batteries in the cold:
https://battlebornbatteries.com/lead-is-dead-white-paper-study/

While I don't think this 'study' reflects poorly on LiFePO4 as a chemistry, the absurdity of this study reflects poorly on Battle Born as a company. I certainly have lost respect for them. The pro/cons of the LiFePO4 can stand on their own without such ridiculously biased marketing malarky put forth as 'real world comparison'.