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Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C Problem

tomdrobin
Explorer
Explorer
After an incident at a campground that fried my TV and microwave six years ago, I decided it was time to get some protection.

I purchased and installed the Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C Electrical Management System. I had no problems with it until this year. I noticed a smell in the TT and a short while later lost power. The readout showed no error codes, and the voltage at the campground pole was ok. Yet, no voltage available in the RV. I accessed the unit, and too my shock the unit top was severely deformed (melted). After removing the cover a visual inspection revealed all the wires to the switching solenoid had melted insulation and discoloration from overheating. Upon removing the unit I also noted the particle board laminate had also melted underneath the unit. I've considerable mechanical and engineering experience, and it appeared to me the solenoid had experienced a failure that caused the overheating.

I called progressive and discussed it with them. They felt the overheating was probably due to a bad connection. And, felt it was because I had solder dressed the ends of the power wires prior to inserting them into the screw clamp. Solder dressing the power wires is a pretty common practice. My TT came that way. I could buy the bad connection theory if it was just one wire. But, it was every wire connected to that solenoid. They declined to warranty the unit for this reason, and I decided to not argue the point any further.

It appears to me the unit does a great job of monitoring incoming power. But, falls short in monitoring problems with the box itself. In my opinion a voltage drop across the main solenoid or excessive heat should trigger a shutdown and a failure code on the display.

All of the arguments for hardwiring a unit in the RV, like out of the elements and less chance of theft, go right out the window when a chance of fire exist however slight. If I were going to install another unit the bare minimum would be some sort of standoff to keep it out of contact with combustible material.
2011 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab 5.3, 6 spd auto, 3.42
2000 Jayco Qwest 30'
18 REPLIES 18

tomdrobin
Explorer
Explorer
myredracer wrote:
I was thinking about this some more. The lug on the contactor has 4 flat sides and with the solid #10 copper conductor I used, there isn't much surface contact area. I'm going to replace with stranded asap. I'd have to re-read the instructions, but I'm sure it's silent on wire type. I also wonder if the connection would tend to loosen up over time with a solid wire in there from vibration and movement of the trailer.


Couldn't you flatten the end of the solid copper conductor, if not already flattened from the installation? I'm thinking it is still preferable to stranded. Were I to reinstall another unit, I would definitely check the connection annually. Right now I don't plan to.
2011 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab 5.3, 6 spd auto, 3.42
2000 Jayco Qwest 30'

myredracer
Explorer II
Explorer II
I was thinking about this some more. The lug on the contactor has 4 flat sides and with the solid #10 copper conductor I used, there isn't much surface contact area. I'm going to replace with stranded asap. I'd have to re-read the instructions, but I'm sure it's silent on wire type. I also wonder if the connection would tend to loosen up over time with a solid wire in there from vibration and movement of the trailer.

09FLSTC
Explorer
Explorer
bshpilot wrote:
mental note - pull the cover on my 50A HW and check all the terminals, annually

Na, check it twice during installation and roll on. Don't do that to yourself. Life it too short, no pun ๐Ÿ˜‰

bshpilot
Explorer
Explorer
mental note - pull the cover on my 50A HW and check all the terminals, annually
Don R.
'04 42' Haulmark Motor Coach - 450hp/1650tq / 12 spd SmartShift
'12 Jeep Wrangler Sport (manual trans)
'17 Platinum F350 (6.7L, SRW, CC, Long bed, 4x4)

westend
Explorer
Explorer
Were there any signs of corrosion or oxidation either on the wires or the lugs? Probably too burnt to tell but it might be another cause.

FWIW, I think it was a couple of years ago where one Forum member had his PI 30 amp unit fail. Inspection of the lugs showed it to be a loose neutral. I can't remember if this was a hardwired EMS or not. High temp conditions and burning of wire jackets was pictured.

Solder does have some resistance and, even if using silver solder, there may be a condition that melts the solder causing a loose connection. It may be that the solenoid winding shorted and caused a short, sending everything thermal. Probably a lot of other causes, as well.
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton

09FLSTC
Explorer
Explorer
Those EMS units from Progressive are the best. I had the TRC? brad on an older unit and it failed with no support. At least PI has lifetime warranty but I doubt I will ever need it. Randy at best told me a few years ago he didn't recommend tinning anything but admits some things come that way. Probably to keep the strands 'pretty' so they don't get all buggerd up in handling but its not necessary. I too like it squished in the connector for maximum conductivity.

tomdrobin
Explorer
Explorer
myredracer wrote:

Where does Jayco use solder-dressed wires? Is this on 120 volt or 12 volt wiring?


The 120V wires in the main panel of my TT were dressed with solder. Perhaps it was for assembly purposes. They look fine with no visible signs of heat, unlike the other end 1 ft away in the EMS.

BTW, an excellent analysis. Thanks for the info.
2011 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab 5.3, 6 spd auto, 3.42
2000 Jayco Qwest 30'

myredracer
Explorer II
Explorer II
My 2 cents...

In all my years of being an electrical engineer (since 1976), I have never heard of, or seen solder dressed terminations (not splices) in power systems (120 volts and up). Not even once.

Everything I've read about Progressive Industries is that they have excellent customer service - as good as it comes. If they backed away, it must be for a reason.

I have to wonder first, if the lugs that the wires connect to are not designed and approved or listed for solder-dressed conductors.

Second, I *think* with the wires being soldered, when the screw on the lug is tightened, the strands of the wire do not spread out enough to maximize the surface area contact of all the individual strands to the surface of the lug. With a poorer connection, this *could* result in heat.

I have no idea if the lugs in the PI EMS are for copper only or copper/aluminum conductors. I have to wonder if perhaps the solder is not compatible with the material the lugs are made from? The photo below is the contactor in our hard-wired EMS. It has a CSA and CE (for Europe) safety standard label on it. I cannot see any marking for copper only or copper/aluminum. Note that the bottom portion of the lugs are brass, the screw is plated steel and the sides are aluminum. The contact pressure occurs between the brass and steel screw. You would think that the solder on the wires would be compatible with the brass part and steel screw.

Often, a lug for 120 volts, like say for the main lugs in a panel in your home, the lug has a round-ish hole for a conductor. This maximizes the contact surface area between the lug and wire. With the EMS contactor, it has a flat bottom, flat sides and a flat surface on the head of the screw. It would seem to me that this does not allow for optimal contact between the wire and lug, thus allowing for the possibility of a poor connection. Now that I look at it, it would appear that a non-dressed, bare stranded #10 conductor would be what's needed.

I think what may have happened is thermal cycling where due to possible initial inadequate contact between the conductor and lug, the dressed/stranded wires expanded with current flowing through them. The strands could have moved under the higher compressive force in the lugs. Then with no or low current, the wires shrunk making a poorer and higher resistance connection. Repeated over many cycles, the resistance could have increased to a level where significant heat was produced. Just a potential theory.......

With stranded conductors, and more so as the gauge gets larger, it helps to wiggle the wire and re-tighten the lug. This may need to be done several times. This causes the strands to spread out and the result is a better connection. With solder-dressed wires, you can't do this.

One thing you could do is contact CSA and find out details on the certification for the contactor, which should indicate if it is only for bare solid or stranded conductors only. CSA has a very stringent and rigorous testing and certification process, highly recognized as the best in the world. It's highly unlikely that there is a flaw in the design of the contactor. I don't know if there is a part number on it, but maybe PI would tell you? There is a UL label on the exterior of the enclosure but the contactor is marked CSA. I could not tell if there was a part number on it.

I used solid #10 conductors and now that this has come up, I am going to have to check and see if I should be using stranded conductors.

Where does Jayco use solder-dressed wires? Is this on 120 volt or 12 volt wiring?

It is unusual for an EMS to overheat as described. I have read about a few owners coming close to a fire after a lightning strike. Installing some sort of fire protective material might be a good idea, especially if in lightning prone areas. Maybe something like fire rated drywall but you need to maintain ventilation.

bshpilot
Explorer
Explorer
I've got the 50A HW unit - and its been plugged in everyday since I've had it (save for a few days dry camping or traveling to/from storage to a camp ground).

Ive easily got 900 days on ours, ill pull the cover (had it off over a year ago because i had a generator issue) and didn't notice any issues.

I've got some panel meters inside our coach that could show me if i had a line drawl (presumably from the PI box) when everything is turned off (in storage)....and I've never seen anything of the sort.

Ive found the PI guys to be very helpful (had questions during installation) and one time at a campground that had all their pedestals polarity reversed.

good info on the non-soldering.
Don R.
'04 42' Haulmark Motor Coach - 450hp/1650tq / 12 spd SmartShift
'12 Jeep Wrangler Sport (manual trans)
'17 Platinum F350 (6.7L, SRW, CC, Long bed, 4x4)

ktmrfs
Explorer
Explorer
tomdrobin wrote:
ktmrfs wrote:

BTW I have the same unit, used it for almost 4 years, and probably approaching 300 days. So far it has performed wonderfully, although yes it does get warm (not hot). In fact this weekend it alerted me to a intermittent open ground at the pedistel.


Mine performed flawlessly for 6 years. The only problem it found though was when I used my portable generator. It seems the generator has a floating ground, and the unit doesn't like that. If the processor is generating some heat, that is to be expected. But, heat from high resistance in the main line IMO, should trigger a shutdown. It protects you from a defect in the source, it should also protect you from it's own internal failures.


common problem with generators, and PI has three solutions. The one i use is to make a "shorting plug" for the generator. a plug wired internally with ground and neutral tied with a piece of #12 wire. I plug that into the generator and now no "open ground" fault.

BTW this last weekend we were at a RV park and on the second day the EMS started giving me a "open ground" fault when AC turned on. turned out the pedistal did have a bad ground, plugged into the next site service and all was well.
2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
2004 14' bikehauler with full living quarters
2015.5 Denali 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison
2004.5 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison passed on to our Son!

vermilye
Explorer
Explorer
ktmrfs wrote:
in my company solder dressing leads under a screw connection was a no-no. This was on equipment that had to meet MIL288800B environmental conditions. solder cold flows, it is soft, even the lead free. over time the connection begins to loose compression, end result is heat.



2X.

Prior to my retiring, part of my job was maintaining a theatre lighting system. That included many miles of 12/3 S extension cords. When the original cords were supplied with the theatre, NY state required tinning of the stranded wires at the connectors. We continually had problems with the connector screws loosening, causing intermittent connections, or overheating of the connector. When we built our own cables, we didn't tin the connections, and had far fewer problems with loose screws.

tomdrobin
Explorer
Explorer
ktmrfs wrote:

BTW I have the same unit, used it for almost 4 years, and probably approaching 300 days. So far it has performed wonderfully, although yes it does get warm (not hot). In fact this weekend it alerted me to a intermittent open ground at the pedistel.


Mine performed flawlessly for 6 years. The only problem it found though was when I used my portable generator. It seems the generator has a floating ground, and the unit doesn't like that. If the processor is generating some heat, that is to be expected. But, heat from high resistance in the main line IMO, should trigger a shutdown. It protects you from a defect in the source, it should also protect you from it's own internal failures.
2011 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab 5.3, 6 spd auto, 3.42
2000 Jayco Qwest 30'

tomdrobin
Explorer
Explorer
bob_nestor wrote:
I think I would have offered to send the unit into Progressive so they could perform their own root-cause analysis. It might not change their decision to cover it under warranty, but then again it could once they've seen the damage that you're seeing.


I got an e-mail from them this morning. Most of it was the shoot the messenger variety. I'm not trying to badmouth them, just raise a red flag on a potential problem. I told them they could have the unit for analysis, but not on my dime.
2011 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab 5.3, 6 spd auto, 3.42
2000 Jayco Qwest 30'

ktmrfs
Explorer
Explorer
in my company solder dressing leads under a screw connection was a no-no. This was on equipment that had to meet MIL288800B environmental conditions. solder cold flows, it is soft, even the lead free. over time the connection begins to loose compression, end result is heat.

your problem does sound like it is/was heat related, possibly due to a high resistance connection either at the input or a bad crimp or solder connection for the coil. Did you by chance check the torque on the connections? If that was good I would suspect another internal connection as a problem source.

BTW I have the same unit, used it for almost 4 years, and probably approaching 300 days. So far it has performed wonderfully, although yes it does get warm (not hot). In fact this weekend it alerted me to a intermittent open ground at the pedistel.
2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
2004 14' bikehauler with full living quarters
2015.5 Denali 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison
2004.5 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison passed on to our Son!