1st 5th wheel

[Jeff___Claudia]

We just picked up our 1st 5th wheel a Jayco Eagle Premier 351 RLTS . We previously owned 2 Jayco tt's each time moving up.

Shake down cruise is this coming weekend for 5 days.

[kaydeejay]

padredw wrote:
..........
A couple of years ago, I lost my trailer brakes in Gunnison, CO just as I left the campground on the way to Colorado Springs (via Canyon City and CO 115). Anyway, I blew out all the fuses I had and on a Saturday morning could not find any help, so I decided to take it easy and go on with no trailer brakes. We had NO problems over Monarch Pass and on to Canyon City. In that town, a young woman in a small car pulled out in front of me just as we were approaching a traffic signal. She decided to stop quickly. I must admit, that was a close call but it was truly a "panic stop." ..........

Reality of your situation is that you were very lucky during that close call.
The laws of physics alone would dictate the following.......
If your unbraked trailer is only the same weight as your truck, then your panic stopping distance is doubled. If the trailer weighs double that of the truck, then your stopping distance is tripled. It's all a ratio between the total rig weight vs the braked weight.
For normal driving/slowing/stopping you CAN survive with just the truck brakes, but for an emergency stop or long steep descent it is not going to cut it.
Had you been in an accident with inoperative brakes you could well have landed in a heap of trouble, both from a legal and liability perspective!

[kaydeejay]

travelnutz wrote:
No food fight between kaydeejay and I at all as we PM'd each other long before your thread. He's a real good guy and there's zero disrespect between us. Sometimes things can be interpreted differently between those in the same professions.

Nutz & I have had several very professional discussions off-line. He and I both have a lot of vehicle performance/test/certification experience even though we worked in different fields. I have a very high respect for his opinions.
I also owe him an answer on the brake size on 2007s.
I don't have that answer yet (my buddy retired same time as I did and the 2007s weren't even on the radar at that time) BUT I DO know that in 2005 (the year of my truck) the 1-tons had slightly larger diameter and thicker rear discs compared to the 3/4 tons. The brake swept area was quite a lot larger.
I'm still working on the 2007 info!

[davosfam]

Nice! We just picked up our new 5th wheel too and are also pulling it with a 3/4 ton Duramax. Enjoy your new toy!

[padredw]

I don't understand all of this, and I may be adding to the confusion by posting about my experience, but . . .

A couple of years ago, I lost my trailer brakes in Gunnison, CO just as I left the campground on the way to Colorado Springs (via Canyon City and CO 115). Anyway, I blew out all the fuses I had and on a Saturday morning could not find any help, so I decided to take it easy and go on with no trailer brakes. We had NO problems over Monarch Pass and on to Canyon City. In that town, a young woman in a small car pulled out in front of me just as we were approaching a traffic signal. She decided to stop quickly. I must admit, that was a close call but it was truly a "panic stop." With only that one incident to cause concern, we made it on to Cheyenne Mountain State Park with only the pickup brakes. We were able to get the trailer brakes functioning for the rest of a long trip up through the Dakotas.

My pickup is a 2008 Duramax/Allison 2500. The trailer a 32.5 UKTG HitchHiker II. (Actually 33' 10")

None of this is intended as a recommendation, but I think it does show that there is a good bit of margin of safety in an emergency. I hope this encourages the first time fifth-wheel driver. We have had four and have traveled over 150,000 miles.

[travelnutz]

No food fight between kaydeejay and I at all as we PM'd each other long before your thread. He's a real good guy and there's zero direspect between us. Sometimes things can be interpeted differently between those in the same professions.

It's your rig and your money and you'll make the decisions for yourself and none of us have any say in what you can or cannot do or have.

It's the Internet and a open forum and there are those who claim you need a one ton dually to pull a 8,000 lb trailer on the highway or you'll crash and die and those who claim you can safely pull a 15,000 lb 5th wheel at 70 MPH with a V6 half ton truck and they do it all the time. You decide for yourself!

Very good useful information is also posted and it's free!

[Jeff___Claudia]

I didn’t mean to start a food fight with this post. I don’t mind the post in regards to the weights; I believe they are with good intentions

Like I stated I do understand that I am right at my limits with this 5th wheel. I also know the amount of research that I did before we purchased it and 90% of the research revolved around the weights and limitations of my TV. I will be the first to admit that a 3500 would be a better fit however I don’t feel that I am putting my family at danger with this combination.

I am not an engineer, however I do understand structural limitations as well as how a dynamic environment changes those limitations things like brake energy and heating of the brakes, a controlled stop versus an emergency stop. I spent 24 years in Marine aviation and after I retired I have spent the last 7 years as a pilot instructor academic and simulator. A large part of what I teach daily is limitations, static versus dynamic and how to deal with those limitations and risks. With over 8000 flight hours with a large number of those in combat. My life has and does understand risk and risk mitigation / management as well as limitations.
Thanks again for all the input I think discussion is good.

[Greene728]

Ridiculous! To the OP, enjoy your new rig! Let us know how it goes.

[travelnutz]

kaydeejay,

Your friend said it right that there's no problem stopping the rig in an emergency situation but not if a driver without any other braking help were to ride the brakes down a long steep grade and then expect to have the optimum braking ability from either the truck or the 5th wheel's wheel brakes. The OP stated he has a 2007 Chevy 2500HD D/A and therefore he has a helper called an engine brake which is standard for downhill braking help and there's no reason for him to even ride the brakes.

Yes, of course I do fully understand ABS systems and their good and bad as they are far from perfect on all surface, wet, dry, loose gravel, or even snow etc covers. They keep the vehicle going reasonably straight and at reasonably colse to the non-skid point until the trailer fishtails and become the boss.

A panic stop is not a series of applying the brakes or heating up the pads but rather a one time climb on the binders!

Did you ask him about the brake system on the 2007 GM 2500HD being the same OEM asm and component part numbers as the 3500HD SRW and the 3500HD DRW models? The 3500DRW version same brakes are rated to consistently and constantly stop an over 11,000 GVW. Check it out! Therefoore the OP's truck brakes are not an issue with 10.7K but his OEM tires likely are as he needs an adequate tire capacity and the larger tires give more square inches of tire footprint so he's kind of back to even on the score board.

I happy to leave it at that other than saying it's true he'd be better off having a 3500HD DRW truck for the 5th wheel he has but it's not a must.

Good fine point discussion Buddy!

[kaydeejay]

travelnutz wrote:
kaydeejay,

We see it differently but my view/posts are from actual conducted test data, engineering manuals, and written accepted Physics etc Laws.

The 12K on the 4 trailer's tires to road provides more friction on the roads surface per square inch of contact than will the 10.7K on the truck's tires would. Then add in the pulsing effect created by anti-lock brake systems on the modern truck when any wheel slides or rotates less RPM's as the others on the roads surface. The trailer's brakes do NOT pulse at all as they are electric solenoid constantly activated and apply continous braking force on all 4 wheels/tires and will apply more measured and calculated friction to the road's surface than the truck's tires will with it's higher load weight. Refer to the engineering manuals and it's very clear and what I had experienced in seeing test/certification videos. Most were done by the insurance institute but some were done on manufacturer's test facilities. I can't go into in depth detail as to which. Nor could you as a past employee.

I can simply turn the adjustment thumb wheel on my trailer brake control on the bottom of my IP to make the trailer brakes do all the stopping when my truck's brake pedal is just slightly depressed. OR Turn it the other way so the truck's brakes will do nearly all the stopping. It's a MUST to have the trailer be pulling backward on the tow vehicle in braking simply because having the trailer inertia pushing the truck in trying to pass the tow vehicle is extremely dangerous and deadly as it over comes the truck's braking ability.

Things in motion tend to say in motion. I think I read that somewhere from a guy named Newton! Claims it's the first LAW of motion. The external force counteracting the motion in the RV world is the friction between the road's surface and the vehicle's tires. More weight per square inch of tire foot print creates more friction on the same road surface. Hey, the OP's trailer's tires have more weight on them per square inch of contact on the road's surface than do the truck's tires right? Extremely hard to argue with that simple fact.

Nutz,
I have a friend who is a retired chassis engineer. He says we are both right!
You are correct under moderate braking in saying it is possible to dial in the trailer brakes such that they provide most of the stopping effort. I did not disagree with that statement.
Note the word "moderate".
However he pointed out that, in extreme braking situations, given a perfect road surface and a friction coefficient of 1.0, the 12,000# on the trailer can generate no more than 12,000# of braking effort. That is 80% efficient on a 15K fiver.
With the truck weighing (say) 7700# + 3000 of pin, at 10,700# those truck brakes can generate 10,700# of braking effort, enough to stop the truck at 1g PLUS absorb the shortfall from the trailer. That completes the 100% braking of the trailer and provides a potential 1g stop for the entire rig.
Of course, that 10,700# of braking is only good until the brakes fade out.
ABS is designed to maintain the wheel at the point of lockup without skidding. That creates maximum braking unless you are on a loose surface such as gravel.
It's much more likely the truck is at maximum braking rather than the trailer due to the delicate balancing act required to get close to, but not quite, trailer wheel lock-up. Once wheels start to slide, maximum braking effort is lost.
Under extreme braking situations I suggest there will ALWAYS be a push on the pin, whether it be the 20% example used above or more.

[travelnutz]

kaydeejay,

We see it differently but my view/posts are from actual conducted test data, engineering manuals, and written accepted Physics etc Laws.

The 12K on the 4 trailer's tires to road provides more friction on the roads surface per square inch of contact than will the 10.7K on the truck's tires would. Then add in the pulsing effect created by anti-lock brake systems on the modern truck when any wheel slides or rotates less RPM's as the others on the roads surface. The trailer's brakes do NOT pulse at all as they are electric solenoid constantly activated and apply continous braking force on all 4 wheels/tires and will apply more measured and calculated friction to the road's surface than the truck's tires will with it's higher load weight. Refer to the engineering manuals and it's very clear and what I had experienced in seeing test/certification videos. Most were done by the insurance institute but some were done on manufacturer's test facilities. I can't go into in depth detail as to which. Nor could you as a past employee.

I can simply turn the adjustment thumb wheel on my trailer brake control on the bottom of my IP to make the trailer brakes do all the stopping when my truck's brake pedal is just slightly depressed. OR Turn it the other way so the truck's brakes will do nearly all the stopping. It's a MUST to have the trailer be pulling backward on the tow vehicle in braking simply because having the trailer inertia pushing the truck in trying to pass the tow vehicle is extremely dangerous and deadly as it over comes the truck's braking ability.

Things in motion tend to say in motion. I think I read that somewhere from a guy named Newton! Claims it's the first LAW of motion. The external force counteracting the motion in the RV world is the friction between the road's surface and the vehicle's tires. More weight per square inch of tire foot print creates more friction on the same road surface. Hey, the OP's trailer's tires have more weight on them per square inch of contact on the road's surface than do the truck's tires right? Extremely hard to argue with that simple fact.

[kaydeejay]

travelnutz wrote:
kaydeejay,

Two very different scenarios!

Bricks in a truck's bed are only weight on the truck's rear axle and tires and their entire weight is stopped soley by the truck's brakes and by nothing else.

The 5th wheel pin equal weight on a truck's rear is attached to and part of the 5th wheel and is soley controlled by the brakes on the 5th wheel only.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree!
A wheel's braking capability is directly proportional to the weight it is carrying. If 3000# of the fiver weight is on the rear axle of the truck, the truck brakes will be doing the stopping in a hard braking situation.
Think of the perfect ultimate 1g brake stop with a friction coefficient of 1.0. To stop at this level requires the tires to apply a braking effort equal to the load on them. (They won't produce more than that)
A 15K fiver will have 12K on the wheels. THAT is the maximum braking effort that the tires can produce and no more. No way the trailer brakes can create a brake effort equal to the total weight of the fiver.
The rest of the weight is on the truck. The truck tires will produce that 3K extra braking effort because the truck tires are carrying the load. For that 1g stop the truck must produce a braking effort equal to its total weight. That includes the pin.
Your suggestion that the fiver stops the truck is only true under moderate braking conditions when the trailer brakes are more aggressive than the truck ones. It is under emergency brake conditions that the truck will do more work.

[travelnutz]

kaydeejay,

Two very different scenarios!

Bricks in a truck's bed are only weight on the truck's rear axle and tires and their entire weight is stopped soley by the truck's brakes and by nothing else.

The 5th wheel pin equal weight on a truck's rear is attached to and part of the 5th wheel and is soley controlled by the brakes on the 5th wheel only. There is NO seperate forward push from the pin weight as with the bricks. The pin weight is controlled and stopped by it's very own trailer's brakes. If anything, the weight of the pin gives the truck's rear tires the same additional traction as the bricks do but yet adds zero forward inertia requiring more stopping ability from the truck's brakes. Actually less truck stopping power needed as the 5th wheel brakes pull backward on the truck and the hitch pin when engaged. Think about it as it's factual!

[rhagfo]

Back in 2007, the brakes on a 2500/250 were the same as on a 3500/350. The springs on a 2500/250 might be softer, but brakes are the same. Newer truck it might be different, but in 2007 pretty much same/same.

[kaydeejay]

travelnutz wrote:
kaydeejay,

You being an auto engineer etc and a 5th wheel owner, I'm surprised you mentioned the 2500 HD brakes being "tested". The truck brakes do not stop the 5th wheel, the brakes on the 5th wheel stop it.

Yes, as a retired auto engineer I am going to stick with my position.
The brakes on the truck are required to stop the weight on the truck.
The brakes on the fiver stop the weight on the fiver wheels, not the total.
If the truck is 1500# over GVWR it is the truck brakes that are going to have to stop that extra weight. No different than if the truck was overloaded with bricks and no trailer.
It is a function of weight on each wheel vs coefficient of friction.
The more weight on the tire, the more braking effort is required by THAT brake.
That 2500 HD truck brakes, as a total system, were certified to meet standards at 9200#, not around 10,700#.

[travelnutz]

kaydeejay,

You being an auto engineer etc and a 5th wheel owner, I'm surprised you mentioned the 2500 HD brakes being "tested". The truck brakes do not stop the 5th wheel, the brakes on the 5th wheel stop it. We'd pulled our 36" 3 axle Carriage with a gvwr of 18,000 lbs and a pin weight of 2730 lbs several times with our 2004.5 Chevy D/A CC LB 4X4 truck with having the 106 gal aux tank in the bed full of diesel fuel. Never did the truck have to stop the Carriage. When you apply the brakes, the Carriage brakes would actually pull backwards on the truck and also help to stop the truck itself. That is how it's supposed to be because you sure don't ever want the trailer trying push or pass the tow vehicle. That would be a very good battering ram and a sure disaster on rain slicked road or hard stop!

When not pulling our 36' very heavy Carriage 5th wheel, the truck was pulling our 29' Carrilite that truck scale weighs 12,840 loaded ready to go or our 11'4" Lance TC as that's all the ordered new has ever been used for during the last just over 150,000 miles since new. BTW, still has the original rear brakes and not needing replacing yet and the front pads were replaced at just under 125,000 and still had approx 30% left. Replaced them before hauled the Carrilite to Florida from Michigan as I sure didn't want to have to do it down there.

The truck has 5000 lb airbags, Rancho 9000xl adjustable shocks, and 265/75/16 "E" Michelins at 3415 cap ea rather than the 245/75/16 "E" with 3042 ca ea OEM tires. Handles all our loads carried excellent and drives and rides great and no DPF or DEF and that's why we keep it and probably for another 150,000 or more miles as it's never had or needed any repairs other than scheduled maintenance. We only tow at 58-60 mph as I know we have a lot of weight and like arriving safe.