Michelin LT failure

[SeniorGNC]

Well, I never expected to be writing this but I had a blowout on my second set of Michelin 16” LT load range E tires. They were only a year old.

We were on our way back to Houston Tx a week ago from a long summer vacation loop through the southwest desert. (About a 3000 mile pull.) On the last day just a couple of hundred miles north of home on US 84 we lost a tire to what the tire store manager called a catastrophic blowout. (There were just some inner casing pieces between the beads.) This was during the heat wave, I think the outside air temperature was about 103 degF. I pull at 60 mph, checked my tire pressure in the morning as I started and thought I was good. All that came to an end when a car pulled up next to me and held up a sign saying “blowout”. Bummer.

I could not even tell I was down a tire. There was no indication based on handling. Last time I scaled I was about 8600 lbs total on the two 5200 lb trailer axles.

Now I don’t feel so invincible tire wise. It cold have been due to a bad tire, a leaky valve stem, road hazard, who knows?

Maybe it is time for RIBs on the trailer and a tire pressure monitoring system.

Good thing I carry a tire changing ramp and DOT triangles.

Oh well, time to go fix the damage to the trailer…

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Me Again wrote:
I found that back in the mid 2000's the rule was changed on MHT tires, requiring DOT tires.

Tireman9 never did state what the tire was on? Given the condition the tire in his picture is in, I think it would be difficult to determine why it lost air. That is was in a external or internal situation that caused the loss of air pressure.

Simple fact in the particular forum is that we read about way to many Special(service) Trailer tire failure that have similar results. In my book it is a result of a product type that is just not robust enough for large trailers.

We have many testimonies that after repeated failures with cheap ST tires, people have switched to higher quality LT tires and their tire issues went away. That is real world results. People have stated the ST tires are very similar to LT tires in construction, however in actual use they do not appear to be of the same quality. Their inflated load ratings do not appear realistic. If their load ratings were 15 percent less instead of 15 more it might be a different story.

Chris

You again!.:B

You must never question the *experts*.

Testimonials don't count.

Testimonial posters are biased (no tire pun).

They *ALL* ran their ST tires with:

Low pressure, too fast, ran over road debris, didn't check air pressure frequently (or frequently enough) - and/or believed an "expert" who has had 22+ STs (by his count) on his trailer!

Which deserves a "post" in the Guinness Book of World Records!..:W


~

[Tireman9]

Well I guess some missed the point of my various posts here and on my blog about looking at physical evidence and based on experience, providing "expert opinion" on the most probable cause for a tire to be in such and such a condition.

I do not know what trailer this tire was on. I noted the tire on the side of the road and thought it might provide another example for tire examination for my blog.

I found no obvious signs of puncture in this tire but cannot rule this out. What I am certain of is that the tire was operated significantly under-inflated for the load it was carrying and operated at "highway" speeds i.e. 45+

I also note the similarity with the condition of the ST tire I wrote about from the Airstream TT.

I will review my files and see if I can find a picture of a tire with obvious puncture and run low flex conditions.

If some want to chose to think that body cord reaches 400+°F when properly inflated and loaded per tables, so be it. I just find that in my 40 years as a tire design & quality engineer it would be essentially impossible for such conditions to exist.

[Me_Again]

I found that back in the mid 2000's the rule was changed on MHT tires, requiring DOT tires.

Tireman9 never did state what the tire was on? Given the condition the tire in his picture is in, I think it would be difficult to determine why it lost air. That is was in a external or internal situation that caused the loss of air pressure.

Simple fact in the particular forum is that we read about way to many Special(service) Trailer tire failure that have similar results. In my book it is a result of a product type that is just not robust enough for large trailers.

We have many testimonies that after repeated failures with cheap ST tires, people have switched to higher quality LT tires and their tire issues went away. That is real world results. People have stated the ST tires are very similar to LT tires in construction, however in actual use they do not appear to be of the same quality. Their inflated load ratings do not appear realistic. If their load ratings were 15 percent less instead of 15 more it might be a different story.

Chris

[CapriRacer]

I truncated most of this post to both save space and make it clear exactly what I am responding to.

Me Again wrote:
.....I believe that there is a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards ruling that these can not be used in other highway service! MHT tires are not DOT certified tires, right?.....

First, the Department of Transportation doesn't certify anything. They are the regulation body, and while they do spot checks, the system is one of self certification. In other words, the tire manufacturer is stating that the tire with the letters "DOT" meet the regulations. The tire manufacturer doesn't actually have to test any of these tires, but if challenged, they have to be able to justify their actions.

Additionally, EVERY tire that hits the street in the US has to have the letters "DOT" on the sidewall - and that includes 14.5" tires.

(OK, there are some special use exceptions, but those are really exceptions, like moving mining equipment, and not broad based exceptions, like delivering trailers.)

[Tireman9]

Me Again wrote:

Tireman9 wrote:

I will be doing an autopsy on it and the results will be my blog post for this week. Take a look this weekend and see if you follow the logic trail and if you agree with my findings.

So this is what the 8 - 14.5 tire looked like before it failed. What was it on? I believe that is the size used on Mobile Homes for delivery and set up. They are not intended to be long life cycle tires. Yet people buy the axles, rims and tires, and put them to other uses. If you look behind the cab of the trucks that deliver Mobile Homes they have a whole rack of spare tires. One also can see them on the side of the road a lot with failed tires. The wheels these tires go on have special hubs patterns to help prevent their re-entry into other services after the delivery of the mobile home! I believe that there is a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards ruling that these can not be used in other highway service! MHT tires are not DOT certified tires, right? Mobile Homes are not license vehicles and do not have two have DOT certified tires for delivery??

Not sure how this one relates to 5th wheel trailers? Tireman9 reply....The tire size may not fit your 5th-wheel but the inspection process applies to tires in general.



http://www.kenjones.com/Scripts/itemdetail.aspx?t=90505&IK=DS6310 Anyone else never heard of Deestone tires before.

"Deestone Tires offer some of the most affordable specialty tires on the market, all with a standard of quality that is comparable to many more-costly brands. If you’re looking for a replacement tire for your golf cart or lawnmower that won’t break the bank, Deestone is right for you."
http://www.tiresusa.com/deestone-tires

Kenda, Duro, Deestone and others, all seem to be of the same ink! Started with bicycle tires and then spread their wings.

Do you sometimes include a finding that "the tire was just not up to the service it was subjected to!"??

Chris

Chris. I interpret that all tires intended for highway use carry the DOT symbol, which the subject tire did. There are regulations
49 CFR 571.120 - "Tire selection and rims and motor home/recreation vehicle trailer load carrying capacity information for motor vehicles with a GVWR of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds)"
"(c) The symbol DOT, constituting a certification by the manufacturer of the rim that the rim complies with all applicable motor vehicle safety standards."

and
49 CFR 571.119 - Standard No. 119; New pneumatic tires for motor vehicles with a GVWR of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) and motorcycles.
a) The symbol DOT, which shall constitute a certification that the tire conforms to applicable Federal motor vehicle safety standards. This symbol may be marked on only one sidewall.

So one of the above covers this type tire.


Yes I have found tires "not up to the service they were subjected to" but those usually were highway tires used in off road gravel service where there was a lot of tread cutting to and through the steel belts. This tire was rated for 2835# at 100psi but in my experience melted body cord is consistent with low inflation, high load & highway speed. All three conditions are needed to get the conditions observed in the tire.
Did you read my posts of February 19, 2013, or July 22, 2012 which was of a TT and has very similar conditions in the tire. The fact that the Airstream is not a 5th wheel does not invalidate the findings.

[FastEagle]

Me Again wrote:


"Deestone Tires offer some of the most affordable specialty tires on the market, all with a standard of quality that is comparable to many more-costly brands. If you’re looking for a replacement tire for your golf cart or lawnmower that won’t break the bank, Deestone is right for you."

Chris

Let your fingers do the walking:

Destone Ref...

Plant code KA.

FE

[Me_Again]

Tireman9 wrote:

I will be doing an autopsy on it and the results will be my blog post for this week. Take a look this weekend and see if you follow the logic trail and if you agree with my findings.

So this is what the 8 - 14.5 tire looked like before it failed. What was it on? I believe that is the size used on Mobile Homes for delivery and set up. They are not intended to be long life cycle tires. Yet people buy the axles, rims and tires, and put them to other uses. If you look behind the cab of the trucks that deliver Mobile Homes they have a whole rack of spare tires. One also can see them on the side of the road a lot with failed tires. The wheels these tires go on have special hubs patterns to help prevent their re-entry into other services after the delivery of the mobile home! I believe that there is a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards ruling that these can not be used in other highway service! MHT tires are not DOT certified tires, right? Mobile Homes are not license vehicles and do not have two have DOT certified tires for delivery??

Not sure how this one relates to 5th wheel trailers?



http://www.kenjones.com/Scripts/itemdetail.aspx?t=90505&IK=DS6310 Anyone else never heard of Deestone tires before.

"Deestone Tires offer some of the most affordable specialty tires on the market, all with a standard of quality that is comparable to many more-costly brands. If you’re looking for a replacement tire for your golf cart or lawnmower that won’t break the bank, Deestone is right for you."
http://www.tiresusa.com/deestone-tires

Kenda, Duro, Deestone and others, all seem to be of the same ink! Started with bicycle tires and then spread their wings.

Do you sometimes include a finding that "the tire was just not up to the service it was subjected to!"??

Chris

[CapriRacer]

SeniorGNC wrote:
........Basically, the only thing left intact was the beads. There was no tread remaining at all.......

I am sure Tireman9 will back me up on this, but when all that is left are the beads, the first suspect is a puncture that resulted in running the tire flat. This is because the casing is only capable of handling a certain amount of load without the reinforcement the inflation pressure adds. If run flat, the casing breaks up at the point where the tread transitions to the sidewall. The tread detaches as a single piece (in the form of a hoop) and what is left are the beads.

Alternatively, if the puncture is more of a cut (and it helps to visualize this as a large cut) the cut will let out all the air, but the damaged belt area will break apart and you will still eventually get only the beads. This appears to be what Tireman9's photo shows. The key is does the part of the tread still available for inspection show any signs of separation. If not, then it is very likely that some sort of road hazard took place.

[SeniorGNC]

Tireman9,

In my hurry to make it to the tire shop before they closed I failed to take any pictures of the tire. I wish now that I had. Basically, the only thing left intact was the beads. There was no tread remaining at all. There were pieces of nylon with some loose casing parts attached between the beads - that is all. The picture you have above has more remaining tire than what I had.

I checked the tire pressures before departure that day (like always) and it was fine. (75 psi. Why? Tire rated for 80 psi, wheel rated for 75 psi.)

At this time I am investigating TPMS brands and models.

Kevin

[Me_Again]

FastEagle wrote:

BeerCan wrote:
Commercial tires are not sized the same way "retail" tires are. G114 is only available in .5 sizes so it is a commercial tire.

Goodyear trailer tire specs. Page #19.

Click Here

FE

You should try a set! Might reduce your tire problems and is cheaper in the long run!

Chris

[Tireman9]

OK folks. I'm here. Just been lurking waiting to see some facts such as pictures of the OP tires so we might have a chance to provide an idea of what may have happened.
Saying "Blowout" is of little more value than saying "failure". What it usually means is the subject tire was run significantly under-inflated for a number of miles at highway speed and what we end up with is a heat related "Run Low Flex Failure"
Now this is not what most want to hear as it means they can't point at the tire brand or at the zip code of the tire plant as the reason the tire failed.

I have to thank FastEagle and JIMNLIN for the boost and link to my blog.
For those interested I have 10 posts with "blowout" as a tag. Of particular interest should be the post of Sunday, July 22, 2012 titled "Blowout" A Real Life Experience". The owner of this tire posted a video on youtube so I was able to capture some reasonable quality views of the failed tire. It didn't take me long to identify the physical evidence that confirms this tire was run low for a number of miles at highway speed, despite the testimony that the owner had checked the inflation just 50 miles before the failure. I note that he even ventured the possibility the tire was defective, but has chosen not to respond to my repeated attempts to get in contact with his so he could educate himself better on the real causes for tire failures.


RE the LT tire that is identified as for trailer application only. I have been able to trace it to a new size & load range designed for Limo and trailer application. Yes it was made in Shandong, China but for those that constantly want to use geography as justification for their belief that the location of the tire plant is the primary reason for its failure.
I would also point out that that logic could be used to claim that RV refrigerators made in Elkhart, IN are of bad design and manufacture as most refrigerators that fail come from Elkhart.

I will leave you with a teaser. Here is a picture of an obvious failed tire.
I will be doing an autopsy on it and the results will be my blog post for this week. Take a look this weekend and see if you follow the logic trail and if you agree with my findings.

[FastEagle]

BeerCan wrote:
Commercial tires are not sized the same way "retail" tires are. G114 is only available in .5 sizes so it is a commercial tire.

Goodyear trailer tire specs. Page #19.

Click Here

FE

[BeerCan]

Commercial tires are not sized the same way "retail" tires are. G114 is only available in .5 sizes so it is a commercial tire.

[Cummins12V98]

Me Again wrote:

BeerCan wrote:
Date code for FE (4612). I don't think this will fit your theory FE.

Yep, that date code shoots down his theroy on the G614. Of course we all know it is not a ST tire and that he hates tires that are not STs. If for once he would explain his agenda, it would be easier to understand where he is coming from!

I have followed his posts for about 6 years and despite approach his marketing of ST tires has not changed much. Chris

Why does my GY G114 H say "Trailer Use Only" ? It does not say LT or ST anywhere that I can find. They have a Mfg date of around 2212.

[Cummins12V98]

Me Again wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
As the end user I'm not now or ever were concerned why my many ST tires failed me or for that matter any tire brand/type failed. I'm not talking a one tire issue but several.
I either change brands or tire types and moved on down the road happy from that point forward that my tires on my trailers stopped having those types of issues.

When a new tire that has never been on the ground and hanging on the back of a RV's rear bumper suddenly blows does that ring a bell with anyone. This is actually not a rare occurrence.

Jim, kind of relates to my situation. My trailer came OEM with Kenda Klever LT235/85R16E china bombs. Before I had a failure like many others with these junk tires, I talked Kenda into a deal. I had a choice of $110 dollars each for all five or Loadstar ST replacements. I took the $550 bucks and they asked that the Michelin Commercial tire shop that was installing my new XPS RIBs destroy the Kenda Klevers.

This was in the spring of 2005. I ran those RIBs for 6.5 years and 40K+ miles before replacing them with a set of Bridgestone Duravis R250's. A guy with an old Ford pickup that he used for garbage dump runs was tickled pink to buy four Ribs with 60-65% tread left for 200 bucks.

Then as the years counted by I heard of all the issues people were having with the Loadstar's. And at this point Kenda was not helping people a second time, as this chinese bicycle tire company had nothing else to offer. I made the right choice!!!!!

So the cost of the RIBs with 550 from Kenda and 200 from resell was not bad at all. I chose the R250's this time based on the fact that they are equal to the Ribs in quality and construction, and cost about 50 dollars less per tire.

Chris

You should be ashamed! Selling those bad tires to that poor old man! ; )