Need to get shot

[4x4ord]

So I towed the trailer into the mountains last weekend with the bike on the lift. The wind was blowing and the trailer towed terrible. Especially going down hill the trailer would push the truck around making for a very stressful drive. Anyway we got out there and it was really nice to have the bike along. My intentions were to have my wife tow the trailer home and I was going to ride the bike to avoid another stressful drive going back home, but .... I wore the back tire off the bike and decided I would feel more comfortable driving an unstable truck back then riding a motorcycle back with a tire that looked like it could pop any second.

Well the drive back was very nice. Little wind and the truck felt much more stable. I got thinking about why there was such a profound difference between the way the 5ver towed going out vs coming back. I think the wind was responsible for some of the unstableness but what may have made the biggest difference is the fact that we used about 40 gallons of water over the weekend. That 40 gallons was moved as we used it from the fresh tank to the black and grey tanks. The fresh tank is over the front trailer axle the black and grey water is stored about 4 feet ahead of the fresh water. I think moving that 40 gallons forward 4 feet shifted about 100 lbs from the trailer axles to the trailer pin.

So in the future i would like to have a few sacks of shot positioned in the bedroom or poured into the kingpin hitch on the trailer to add some ballast to the pin weight.

I weighed the truck and trailer on the way home:

front truck axle .......4960 lbs
rear truck axle ........5440 lbs
trailer axles ..........14440 lbs

Tare weight of truck rear axle is 3480 lbs.

Any ideas on where to get a cheap couple hundred pounds of shot.

[Slownsy]

My comment. Dexter makes 6000lb axles with disk brakes as I had them on my FW. They also have different sise bearings for different weight. I would not be sure that axles are 8000lb as hubs can be interchangeable. Find numbers on axles and contact Dexter with numbers and they will give you all the details re axles brakes and springs. Shifting axles may not be a option as previous comments re slides etc but definitely better if possible than adding extra weight op front as well.
Frank.

[BubbaChris]

If putting temporary weight up in the rig, look for something useful and inexpensive.

Although currently out of season here, 40# wood stove pellet bags run about $6 each (way cheaper than Traeger pellets). And we have a Flame Genie I use in lieu of a traditional campfire.

[4x4ord]

valhalla360 wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:


I really don't like to challenge any on your comments as I know you are an intelligent guy and usually agree with your comments BUT I don't see how adding an axle BEHIND your existing axles will change enough to make it worth while. I am not an engineer but the front axle placement has more to do with more or less pin weight. Moving your axles back will do much more.

This part theoretically works.

Assuming evenly spaced axles, the trailer pivots around the center point of the axles.
- With 2 axles, it's halfway between the axles.
- With 3 axles, its around the center axle.

The real problem is by the time you:
- Buy another axle, wheels and tires.
- Pay to have it mounted properly
- Add braking to that axle.
- Reconstruct the side to add wheel wells

I'm betting he could trade to a nice toy hauler and not have a jury rigged design.

The cost of adding a third axle would be in the neighbourhood of $4000. I haven't seen a toy hauler that I like as much as my current trailer. I'm sure they're out there but like;y at a price that i wouldn't be willing to afford.

[valhalla360]

Cummins12V98 wrote:


I really don't like to challenge any on your comments as I know you are an intelligent guy and usually agree with your comments BUT I don't see how adding an axle BEHIND your existing axles will change enough to make it worth while. I am not an engineer but the front axle placement has more to do with more or less pin weight. Moving your axles back will do much more.

This part theoretically works.

Assuming evenly spaced axles, the trailer pivots around the center point of the axles.
- With 2 axles, it's halfway between the axles.
- With 3 axles, its around the center axle.

The real problem is by the time you:
- Buy another axle, wheels and tires.
- Pay to have it mounted properly
- Add braking to that axle.
- Reconstruct the side to add wheel wells

I'm betting he could trade to a nice toy hauler and not have a jury rigged design.

[bpounds]

There is probably a way to design a pair of tag swivel wheels into your lift. Something that can be rotated up and out of the way when you lower the lift, and rotated into load carrying position when traveling. Similar to the tote trailers that some use.

Just spit-balling, because I don't remember much about your lift design.

[4x4ord]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
I agree with Chris, move the axles and get er dun! Other option is get ya one of these.

It would be interesting to see how a dually would have felt while the trailer was swaying side to side all over the toad.

[4x4ord]

laknox wrote:
I still say to travel with full black and grey tanks, and minimal fresh water, and see how that works out before making major mods. Sounds like the OP is likely in a CG, with full hook-ups, so the dump should be no issue.

I'm also troubled by the fact that he stated that the rear tire on his bike was too worn to ride safely back home. Just how long was he gone that a "safe" tire to start with was worn down to "unsafe"? Either that, or just how many burnouts did he do on that tire? :B

Lyle

The Dunlop was about done when I left camping. It had 6000 miles on it and I had new tires on order. While camping I put about another 400 miles on the bike. i noticed it wasn't handling the way it should and so while enjoying a beer after my last ride I got thinking about that back tire.

[4x4ord]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
"I don't need to be in the 20-25% range although adding a third axle will put me in that range when the bike is not loaded."

I really don't see how that would happen. Every triple axle has a lower pid that I have seen. Sounds like your axles need to be moved back to get you to 20% or more pin. More would be better then it would come down some with the bike on board.

As to the random "at least it's not a Harley" comment. I went from a 1100 V Star Yami to a 09 HD UltraGlide, no comparison in so many ways.

Moving the axles back does the same thing as adding a third axle behind the tandems. Both place the center of the axles further back from the center of the load.

I really don't like to challenge any on your comments as I know you are an intelligent guy and usually agree with your comments BUT I don't see how adding an axle BEHIND your existing axles will change enough to make it worth while. I am not an engineer but the front axle placement has more to do with more or less pin weight. Moving your axles back will do much more.

Think about it this way: the trailer is a big teeter totter. The fulcrum of the teeter totter is not quite as precise when multiple axles are used and you're focussing on the weight being carried by the truck and seeing the fulcrum as being the front axle. If you look at the teeter totter in the same way but from the rear axle back and consider how much weight the bike is lifting off the truck you would see the fulcrum point as the rear axle. Consider if you added axles all the way to the back of the trailer. The bike wouldn't have any lifting effect on the pin.

[laknox]

I still say to travel with full black and grey tanks, and minimal fresh water, and see how that works out before making major mods. Sounds like the OP is likely in a CG, with full hook-ups, so the dump should be no issue.

I'm also troubled by the fact that he stated that the rear tire on his bike was too worn to ride safely back home. Just how long was he gone that a "safe" tire to start with was worn down to "unsafe"? Either that, or just how many burnouts did he do on that tire? :B

Lyle

[Cummins12V98]

I agree with Chris, move the axles and get er dun! Other option is get ya one of these.

[Cummins12V98]

BurbMan wrote:
I would have a concern about bending the frame on the 5er with 800 lbs hanging off the back like that. Plus if I had a sweet looking bike like that I sure as shot wouldn't trust it mounted on the back of the trailer. Trading the 5er in for a toy hauler would be a better solution, plus lets the bike ride inside out of the elements.

If you had seen his write up on his own CUSTOM made MC carrier you would not have these concerns.

[Cummins12V98]

4x4ord wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
"I don't need to be in the 20-25% range although adding a third axle will put me in that range when the bike is not loaded."

I really don't see how that would happen. Every triple axle has a lower pid that I have seen. Sounds like your axles need to be moved back to get you to 20% or more pin. More would be better then it would come down some with the bike on board.

As to the random "at least it's not a Harley" comment. I went from a 1100 V Star Yami to a 09 HD UltraGlide, no comparison in so many ways.

Moving the axles back does the same thing as adding a third axle behind the tandems. Both place the center of the axles further back from the center of the load.

I really don't like to challenge any on your comments as I know you are an intelligent guy and usually agree with your comments BUT I don't see how adding an axle BEHIND your existing axles will change enough to make it worth while. I am not an engineer but the front axle placement has more to do with more or less pin weight. Moving your axles back will do much more.

[valhalla360]

4x4ord wrote:


With 17 % pin weight the trailer pulls very nice, I don't need to be in the 20-25% range although adding a third axle will put me in that range when the bike is not loaded.

I have a nice enclosed trailer I have double towed behind this trailer. It tows very nice and safe. The problem is the BC government dosn't want us double towing in that province. I want to be able to bring the bike into BC.

17% is probably on the verge of being unstable. Good enough for the delivery trip but while I'm not familiar with the storage, I'm betting the manufacturer figures more weight will be stored towards the front increasing the percentage. I doubt they figured on a 1000lbs behind the rear bumper.

Obviously, it it is a bad setup or you wouldn't have posted the thread in the first place.

If you can't double tow, by the time you add an axle or jump thru all the hoops to add/move axles and have it done right and not look horrible...probably better and cheaper just to trade in and get a toy hauler designed to do what you are looking for.

[blofgren]

4x4ord wrote:
Citation rates the axles at 7000 lbs. However they are Dexter axles equipped with Dexter disc brakes. In the documents supplied with the trailer is a Dexter brochure. The lightest, disc brake equipped, axle listed in that brochure is an 8000 lb axle. The 7000 lb axle has drum brakes. I kind of think Dexter is rating these axles at 8000 lbs. Even if they are 7000 lb axles.... 7200 vs 7000 is only slightly over the rated capacity.

As far as the frame strength is concerned: this trailer has an exstemely deep frame rail. About 18" deep over the axles and tapering off a little as you move back. I don't think an extra 500 lbs per rail is a big deal.

The axles are definitely Dexter 8,000 lb with Neverlube bearings and disc brakes. I know this for a fact because I recently bought a spare hub with a Neverlube bearing set pressed into it and it was listed for a 8,000 lb axle. So the axles are not overloaded.

[Me_Again]

bpounds wrote:

Me Again wrote:
Adding more weight seems a bit backwards to me. If the trailer tows fine without the MC on the back, then you know it is out of balance. Move the fulcrum(aka axles) and be done with it. Enjoy the rest to the summer. Front over hang/pin box connection may not like the additional weight.

Chris

I've never done it, obviously, but moving axles 20" or whatever, seems not so simple. What do you do with the wheel wells? Cutting and moving spring hangers is one thing, bodywork and paint is another. Clearing slide hardware, utility lines, hydraulic brake lines for his disk brakes...

Less dramatic than adding a 3rd axle. Moving axles back 20" verse another axle that will extend 34-35" inches behind the exiting axles. J panels will have to be altered either way.