Pickup rental?

[Tdavid]

I've got a challenge on my hands. I want to get my non-com Class A license in PA, but my current pickup has a max GCWR of 23,500lbs. From what I've learned you need to take the test in a rig combo that can legally exceed 26,001lbs GCWR.

I ran my current truck and 5er over the scales, and I'm within all my permissible weights (pin, rear axle, GCWR), with a GCW of 22,800, but my GCWR would be 28,150 as per the stickers.

So I technically need a non-com Class A license.

I have a Reese Goose Box hitch on my 5er, set to match the frame receiver as per the install instructions (which also resulted in a perfectly level trailer on my truck). I see a place near me that rents flat bed Ram 3500 Aisin pickups with goose neck balls. Can I rent one of those to take my test? Not sure the geometry difference between pickup bed and flat bed.

[Tdavid]

soren wrote:

Yea, that's not gonna' fly.

You don't write at length, making declarative statements about impounding, being potentially cited for non-existent violations in other states, claims about being denied insurance coverage, etc, and the way it works here in PA. and declare that the tread is about something else. Nice try though.

Dude, what's with the axe you're grinding?

If anything, I'm simply stating the law as it's written, you're the one making blanket statements about "reality."

You choose not to be legal. That's up to you.

I'm choosing to be legal, and am inquiring, as per my first post, on how to mate a flatbed rental truck to my 5er.

If you're going to rant about tinfoil hats, do it in another thread, please.

[soren]

Tdavid wrote:


Got it. This thread wasn't about your tolerance for risk.

It was about how I could mate my 5er up to a flatbed pickup with a goose ball.

Any insight into that?


(I've done my homework on licensing, and am deciding to become legal as best as possible in the eyes of the law, to mitigate as much risk as possible should the statistically improbable (not impossible) occur.)

Yea, that's not gonna' fly.

You don't write at length, making declarative statements about impounding, being potentially cited for non-existent violations in other states, claims about being denied insurance coverage, etc, and the way it works here in PA. and declare that the tread is about something else. Nice try though.

[Tdavid]

soren wrote:
The scenarios you present, have been discussed, ad nauseum, for well over a decade , before you joined. Bottom line? Your concerns are, at best statistically improbable. In reality. When it comes to things like having your rig, "impounded" well, that's drifting into paranoid territory. Your life, do what you feel comfortable with. I suppose that somewhere, somebody straps on a life jacket and a football helmet before they get behind the wheel, to protect themselves from risks that they are concerned with. That doesn't mean that I'm heading out to shop for a football helmet, any time soon.

Your claim that everything you discuss is "real" is something you really need to give some thought to, since it simply incorrect. Your rig is NOT going to be impounded. You will NOT be denied coverage in an accident. You will NOT be cited for NOT having a license, possibly required in PA. if you are stopped in ANOTHER state, and on and on.

Relax, be safe, operate safe equipment, and stop attempting to create issue for yourself that simply do not exist. If you feel better with a CDL great, but don't make blanket statements about "the way it is, on the roadways of PA" that are simply not true. Be careful, enjoy yourself, and good luck........................

Got it. This thread wasn't about your tolerance for risk.

It was about how I could mate my 5er up to a flatbed pickup with a goose ball.

Any insight into that?


(I've done my homework on licensing, and am deciding to become legal as best as possible in the eyes of the law, to mitigate as much risk as possible should the statistically improbable (not impossible) occur.)

[soren]

The scenarios you present, have been discussed, ad nauseum, for well over a decade , before you joined. Bottom line? Your concerns are, at best statistically improbable. In reality. When it comes to things like having your rig, "impounded" well, that's drifting into paranoid territory. Your life, do what you feel comfortable with. I suppose that somewhere, somebody straps on a life jacket and a football helmet before they get behind the wheel, to protect themselves from risks that they are concerned with. That doesn't mean that I'm heading out to shop for a football helmet, any time soon.

Your claim that everything you discuss is "real" is something you really need to give some thought to, since it simply incorrect. Your rig is NOT going to be impounded. You will NOT be denied coverage in an accident. You will NOT be cited for NOT having a license endorsement, possibly required in PA. if you are stopped in ANOTHER state, and on and on. (many states have no such thing as an RV CDL endorsement BTW, and federal law prohibits your scenario of being cited for not having a a PA. RV endorsement, in another state)

Relax, be safe, operate safe equipment, and give some thought to refraining from creating issues for yourself that simply do not exist. If you feel better with a CDL great, but don't make blanket statements about "the way it is, on the roadways of PA", or make claims about insurer responsibility, or enforcing PA state law in other states, that are simply false. Be careful, enjoy yourself, and good luck........................

[Tdavid]

soren wrote:

I strongly disagree with your claim regarding the "way it works when you are pulled over in PA." In fact, I would argue that that pretty much the opposite of the way it works, since most LEOs don't know how to determine, or give a rat's butt hair about, what your Fifth weighs, and if your pickup is rated appropriately. As for your concerns about being "impounded" Seriously......... this is a rural state with a limited police coverage. You can't be serious?


Not mean to be offensive in the least, just the facts.

Not sure where I limited this risk to just getting pulled over in PA.

What I stated was that PA law requires a non-com Class A if combined GROSS weight of truck and trailer exceeds 26,001lbs.

My home state laws carry over to wherever I travel in the US.

I could be cruising down I95 in South Carolina, exceeding the speed limit, and get pulled over by a state trooper.

That state trooper then checks the stickers on my truck and trailer, sees that I am over 26,001lbs Gross Combined Rating, and am holding a Class C PA license with no endorsements. The trooper has every right to then impound my vehicles for driving unlicensed. Me and my family are then sitting at the side of the road.

Or: I am cruising the PA turnpike and get in an accident. When the insurance adjuster sees that I was not holding a Class A and my GCWR exceeded 26,001lbs, they're most likely not going to pay out. Further, when the police do their investigation, they have every right to criminally prosecute me for driving unlicensed. And anyone injured in the crash can sue me for negligence.

Not to sound offensive, but everything I described above is real. Your tolerance for risk is higher than mine by choosing to decide it won't happen to you.

I have a lot to lose should any of the above scenarios happen to me.

[soren]

I know it's not something you would agree with, but as a lifetime PA. resident, with a whole lot of experience in the construction industry (dealing with moving heavy equipment, driving class 6 trucks, etc..) I really think you are addressing an issue that only exists in your mind. Based on experience and discussions with law enforcement, you have a better chance of being struck by a meteorite than being stopped by a "creeper cop" from PSP motor carrier enforcement, and directed to a scale, while pulling your fifth wheel, or being asked for you CDL by ANYBODY in uniform in this state, while pulling a fifth. They can literally pull a dump trailer garbage hauler off of any even numbered interstate, and write a page of violations, in half an hour of inspecting. They aren't going to waste time screwing with a squeaky clean recreational hauler. They simply couldn't care about you and your fifth wheel. It's no different than getting a state inspection sticker on a trailer. I spent decades pulling well maintained, perfectly safe, recreation trailers that never got an annual PA. inspection. The reason? It wastes half a day of my time, and cost $75+for somebody to pull a wheel to tell me that my brakes are good, the breakaway functions, and the tail lights work. All information I already knew, and don't need to waste my time and money on, to satisfy the government. If you ask a typical PA.LEO where the inspection sticker is on a trailer, they haven't got a clue, and 99.9% of them could care less. All of PA. law enforcement has far more serious things to concern themselves with.

I strongly disagree with your claim regarding the "way it works when you are pulled over in PA." In fact, I would argue that that pretty much the opposite of the way it works, since most LEOs don't know how to determine, or give a rat's butt hair about, what your Fifth weighs, and if your pickup is rated appropriately. As for your concerns about being "impounded" Seriously......... this is a rural state with a limited police coverage. You can't be serious?


Not mean to be offensive in the least, just the facts.

[Tdavid]

4x4ord wrote:
The flat bed ball could possibly be too far forward for your 5ver. Could you measure straight back from your pinbox to the trailer and compare that number to the distance from the truck ball to the left or right rear corner of the flat bed? I would think if you had about 6 extra inches you should be fine.

So typical flat bed goosenecks have the ball further forward than a typical pick up application, good to know!

How do they compare in height?

Adjusting that Goose Box is a real chore, I managed to install it by myself, and it tuckered me out. Heavy sucker.

[Tdavid]

valhalla360 wrote:

I was referring to the testing people, not enforcement.

I know you were, but they're bound by the same laws.

valhalla360 wrote:

Both are not correct. GCVWR is 23,500.

If you max out the GVWR of both the truck and trailer, you are over the GCVWR.

Yes, both are correct. I have a rated safe combined limit as per the truck manufacturer (23,500), and I also have the combined weight as per the stickers added together, which is what an LEO looks at: 11,400 plus 16,750 = 28,150, which pushes me into non-com Class A territory.

valhalla360 wrote:

You missed my point. Does the license specifically call out that the endorsement is based on towing a trailer? Or just any truck (possibly with or without a trailer) over a certain GCVWR.

In pretty much all states that I know of, a Class A refers to TOWING, while a Class B refers to single vehicle (like a motorhome). So if I need my Class A, I have to show up at the driving test with the appropriate rig. A single truck with a 26,001+ GVWR won't cut it.

valhalla360 wrote:

Edit: On re-reading your original post, I'm not sure if you "need" an endorsement at all. You only need the endorsement if the GCVWR exceeds 26,001 but yours is 23,500. It would be worth double checking but per the normal way of calculating GCVWR, you aren't over as anything over 23,500 exceeds the ratings.

Again, the way it works in PA and wherever you will be pulled over: they add up the two GVWR from the truck and trailer. Does not matter what your *actual* weight is at that time, or what it should be per the manual, it only matters what the rigs hooked together at that combined *could* max weigh as per their stickers. Those two combined determine your license requirement.

And, in my case, if they checked my manual, they would see I am exceeding my safe rated GCWR, too, as per adding up the stickers. This is all happening on the side of the road, they aren't escorting you to a local weigh station to measure actual weight, they go off Gross Rating.

[4x4ord]

The flat bed ball could possibly be too far forward for your 5ver. Could you measure straight back from your pinbox to the trailer and compare that number to the distance from the truck ball to the left or right rear corner of the flat bed? I would think if you had about 6 extra inches you should be fine.

[valhalla360]

Tdavid wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
Do they go off of actual weight or rated weight?

All licensing, as far as I know, is based on rated weight. When you get pulled over, they don't direct you to the closest scale to check the actual weights, they just look at your stickers on the vehicles for rated weights.

I was referring to the testing people, not enforcement.

valhalla360 wrote:
Also you list two GCVWR figures. Which one is correct?
- my current pickup has a max GCWR of 23,500lbs
- my GCWR would be 28,150 as per the stickers.

Both are correct.

23,500 is permissible max weight combined as per my owner's manual. 2004 GMC 3500 diesel dually. Not to exceed 23,500 combined truck and trailer, so my max rated weight (GCWR) is 23,500 as printed.

However, adding up the truck GVWR of 11,400 and the trailer GVWR of 16,750, as printed on their stickers, and you get 28,150, which bumps me into Class A range (GCWR of 26,001+).

Both are not correct. GCVWR is 23,500.

If you max out the GVWR of both the truck and trailer, you are over the GCVWR.

valhalla360 wrote:

Where did you get your info? I get that just showing up and being wrong may be a hassle but if it's off the web site, maybe try calling and explaining your situation. They may say it's not a problem or they may have alternatives you could try.

I got my info from those who have taken the test. The officer will check the manual of the tow vehicle.

Try calling the DMV and explain your situation. Checking the manual may be the typical thing to do but I'm sure it's not the first time, this issue has come up.

valhalla360 wrote:

You might try one of the truck rental companies (Penskie or the like). Does the licensee specially call out 5th wheel? If you had a big moving van with sufficent rating would that do the trick?

Then I would have to find a tow behind trailer with sufficient GVWR to get me over 26,001 lbs GCWR, a whole other challenge in itself. A single vehicle with a 26,001+ GVWR will only get me a Class B license.

You missed my point. Does the license specifically call out that the endorsement is based on towing a trailer? Or just any truck (possibly with or without a trailer) over a certain GCVWR.

There is some confusing info in your post but really it comes down to calling the testing authority and asking them how to solve the issue. We can speculate and you can ask people who have taken the test but unless they have directly asked the question, we could be wrong.

Edit: On re-reading your original post, I'm not sure if you "need" an endorsement at all. You only need the endorsement if the GCVWR exceeds 26,001 but yours is 23,500. It would be worth double checking but per the normal way of calculating GCVWR, you aren't over as anything over 23,500 exceeds the ratings.

[Tdavid]

Well, to be honest, I can understand why they would not let me take the test in my rig: technically, if I load up to max GVWR for each vehicle, I would be exceeding the combined rating.

If they only police via GVWR, as far as they know I could be showing up at the test already exceeding the rated capacity of my vehicle combo, making the whole point of ensuring I am operating safely moot.

Further, should I get in an accident, even with the Class A license, I'd be exposed to liability since research could show that GCWR was being exceeded (they're not going to weigh the debris after an accident to calculate actual weight, they'll just look at stickers).

What I am trying to accomplish here is a step toward being legal, perhaps with a new truck in the future to make it official.

A step towards being legal has to be better than nothing. Holding that Class A license could be the difference between being or not being impounded should I ever be pulled over. I doubt the officer would look into my owner's manual at the time, he would just look at my stickers and my license.

[rjstractor]

I've read through this thread several times, trying to figure out exactly what you are trying to do. Looking at buying a bigger truck or trailer, or just trying to be legal with your current combo? I'm thinking that if it's just for your current combo, they can't very well require you to have the A license for your combo, yet not allow you to take your test with it. In my state, the GCWR used for licensing purposes is simply the truck GCWR+ trailer GCWR. The manufacturers GCWR does not matter at all.

[gkainz]

Ah, got it! Should make things a little simpler, one would hope!

[Tdavid]

I already have the trailer, all I would need to rent is the tow vehicle. You don’t need a Class A endorsement to rent a pickup with the ability to tow that weight. You just need that endorsement if you are *actually* towing that weight.