How many of us are there? Owners of Dodge based RV's?

[whiteknight001]

I'm new here, and curious.

How many of us in Class C own Dodge B300 incomplete
cab/chassis based RV's? I know two others- Steve aka
Ripsaw, with a 1977 Brougham, and Leroy aka 1978_Dodge
_Delta who owns a 440V8 powered sharp looking 1978
Delta RV. I would like to ask, and offer, help, idea
swapping and comparing notes on our particular RV's
which are based on the Dodge B300 van chassis.

Yeah, I know. These are low tech, podgy old RV's that
would be considered "entry level" for folks like me,
but I have a deep and abiding respect for the quality
of these old "monsters of the open road". And anyone
wanting to pick brains, joke about, share notes or just
brag about our old A- Dodge-io's are certainly welcome
to PM or email me. Between all of us we can form a real
good support group, and help each other with problems
we know we'll encounter with an older vehicle.

Sure. I'd love a new RV. But I'd rather have an older
one already paid for, and a lotta great memories. Call
me frugal, an old hippie, or whatever you will. I'm proud
of my old land yacht.

Mopar Madness Manifest in the flesh,

Mark aka White Knight

P.S. Mine's a '72. Is there an older one out there someone's
motorvating in? Maybe even a Travco? W/K

[regis101]

Also, been hitting the Vicodin just to get things done.

BTW - turned 60 years old on the 17th of this month.

OK. I'm calling it. Party at Griff's place. Who's in??

[regis101]

Leeann wrote:

regis101 wrote:
Wait. What was the question?

You answered it...but aren't there pics?

Oh you betcha. Linky linky bottom of page 621.

Will be taking more pics of recent work this weekend.

Changed two roof vents with FanTastic 12v models. Changed third roof vent in wet bath with non powered model. Changed two plumbing roof vents. Going to clean and seal the metal roof before too long. New tires. Almost there.

[Griff_in_Fairba]

Leeann wrote:
Just checking on everyone 'cause it's been silent for a couple weeks...all ok?

Yeah, still here ... been writing and rewriting my rambling on starter vs deep cycle battery. So far, all attempts at explanation go from overly simple to overly scientific. I've been unable to find any reasonable middle ground but will try again tonight.

Plus, been working on the house, finalizing boat's wiring diagram, and getting ready for winter. (First frost warning, for low lying areas, went out a week ago ... Alaskans aren't joking when we say our four seasons are June, July, August, and winter.

Also, been hitting the Vicodin just to get things done.

BTW - turned 60 years old on the 17th of this month.

[Leeann]

regis101 wrote:
Wait. What was the question?

You answered it...but aren't there pics?

[regis101]

Im in restoration mode. I really wanted too but I caved and bought 7- 16.5's. All is well. Everything will be fine. Nothing to see here, please move along. Next Rv will get the 16's.

Started to tear out the galley for a remodel. Oven didn't work. Don't want a four burner stove. Furnace didn't work. Cabinetry isn't useful. Three way fridge is wonky. blah, blah. So out it comes. All of it. Easy enough to fix all that.

Next up will be reupholstery and by then the weather will be comfy enough around here to camp.

Wait. What was the question?

[Leeann]

Just checking on everyone 'cause it's been silent for a couple weeks...all ok?

[Griff_in_Fairba]

I will get back to my motor vehicle systems ramblings ... I promise. When I do, I'll resume where we left off -- starting versus deep-cycle batteries. It may be a while ... payday was a few days ago, we made one of our occasional trips to town yesterday for supplies, it's warm and sunny outside, and I have the materials I need to resume work on some of my projects.

One of the reasons I'm writing this now is the dog managed to land on my bad leg last night, causing me to wake up and, in turn, waking up my wife because of my loud scream of pain. That, combined with my service-connected mental health and pain management issues, has made it difficult to get around to doing anything today involving physical movement. (Some days, the only thing I manage to accomplish is putting away a single thing.)

The other, more important reason is a member of our group has been messing with a 120/240VAC electrical system. That makes this a very good time to discuss safety.

This is information is repeated all over the place. However, some people somehow manage to avoid reading the warnings and, worse yet, some people overlook or ignore them. (I will admit I sometimes unintentionally violate the same warnings.)

I'm not really superstitious but, when it comes to electrical work as well as firearms, I do believe in PFM. (Pure F'ing Magic.) As soon as I pick up a firearm, I clear it. (This got me into trouble in basic training ... personally, I would have given the students a demonstration in clearing a weapon before telling them to pick theirs up.) Even then, I tend to clear the weapon again, especially if I've looked away or put the weapon down momentarily. Simply put, I tend to believe a round has somehow magically appeared in the chamber. (A small scar on my hand due to a supposedly empty BB gun tends to reinforce this belief.)

My approach to electrical systems work is similar. Even when I know all power has been removed from a circuit, I still approach it as if an electrical current has somehow found its way into the circuit. (Ask one of my friends ... he discovered this when his teen-age daughter turned on all the circuit breakers so she could make popcorn in the microwave. The result was a screwdriver flying across the room, a small bit of fireworks, some blackened metal, and his preschool son helpful pointing out that he was hearing "dirty" words.)

Healthy professional electricians like to keep one hand in their pocket. This is to prevent them for unintentionally using their body to create a short circuit, usually by grabbing a metal ground. For many, this is so ingrained that they automatically go on "high alert" when they have to use both hands. (The wife of one mentioned he tended to tense up when he had to use both hands to prepare food or change the baby's diaper -- the second example may have also been do to the nature of the task.)

I strongly recommend you buy and regularly use an AC voltage detector. This is one example, although I'm not necessarily recommending this example. I currently don't have one because both of my two previous ones were stolen. (Excuse me, "borrowed." One anonymously and the other never returned.)

I haven't gotten around to getting another because the electrical service to my property is protected by a removable fuse block that I can pull out and keep in my pocket, thus cutting all power to everything I own.

NOTE: I am not implying that 12VDC is any less dangerous than 120/240VAC. Watts is what determines how much work -- or damage -- an electrical current can do, with watts being equal to amps times volts.

So, 150 amps at 12 volts has the same work -- and danger -- potential as that available from a common 15 amp 120 volt household outlet. (For those who haven't been keeping track, this means the current surge going to your engine's starter can be as much as 10 times that coming from your house's electrical outlets.)

[Griff_in_Fairba]

eyeteeth wrote:
I really hate dealing with Electrical... It's not my strong suit... So, I always dread it. I'm glad this one will work out on the easy scale.

I may not have been clear on the extra breaker... The 120 side has space for three 'normal' house size 'plug in' breakers. One was a 30 amp for the overall house system, which left 2 for the rest of the house. One was a 20 amp GFI for the exterior outlet and the bathroom... the other 20 amp had everything else. When turning on the air conditioner you could hear it starving for power. I found a 'plug in' breaker with 2 20 amp breakers in it. So I now have that in place which allowed me to put the Air Conditioner on it's own 20 Amp Circuit making it much happier when it is turned on. Does that make better sense? I can take a picture for you if you'd like.

To touch base on a few of your other comments... I understand. I do IT for a living. We're often judged by what we know and what we can figure out making it really hard to ask for opinions... especially when it's something simple. I frequently try and break this habit using examples of not being able to see the forest through the trees. Its very common for someone to be so deep in a project or troubleshooting that the answer is several layers back... but it's not on you mind because you're past it. I have many stories on the topic where guys could have saved hours... and even days... by simply asking an outside person for their thoughts. So... lead by example... lol, I ask. 😛

Except for our level of experience, you and I aren't very different. I don't relish electrical work ... it requires a lot of attention and care and the result isn't always what I planned (Oops!) ... rebuilding automatic transmissions is easier.

The 30 amp is the main. The other two slots are for branch circuits. (Inside the box, the other two slots are fed by the output from the 30 amp main.)

Removing the GFCI circuit breaker is probably a mistake. Current residential code requires GCFI protection for circuits in bathrooms, laundry rooms, kitchens, garages, and outdoor areas. Minimum requirements is for outlets in those areas to be protected, either by GFCI circuit breakers or individual GFCI outlets. Best practices call for all circuits in those areas to be GFCI, including overhead lights.

Your best option to regain GFCI protection would be to replace the 30 amp main with a 30 amp GFCI breaker. This would provide GFCI protection for your motorhome's entire 120/240VAC system, a good ideas from a safety perspective, given the confined space in a motorhome.

I'm going to take a guess ... your shore power plug has four prongs? On modern systems, four prongs means 240VAC power. (Electric stoves and clothes dryers should have four prong plugs.) Older 240VAC systems may use three prong plug, which should be upgraded to four prongs. Three prong 240VAC probably require an adapter in most commercial campgrounds. (These campgrounds are required to upgrade to four prong outlets.)

On four prong connectors, two of the prongs each carry 120VAC (hot #1 and hot #2 will serve as designation for our purposes), one prong is neutral and the fourth prong is ground. On older three prong connectors, two of prong are still 120VAC "hot," with the neutral and ground tied together on the third prong. (In some cases, the third prong is neutral only, meaning the shore power outlet, plug, cable, and entire motorhome is not grounded ... this possibility is a VERY good reason to upgrade to four wire shore power.)

A three prong plug could indicate 120VAC shore power only. (Unless someone violated long-standing standards, 120VAC and 240VAC three prong plugs had very different configurations, making it impossible to plug one type into the other type outlet.)

Based on what happened to eyeteeth's A/C, I can almost guarantee he has 120/240VAC shore power. Before his change, the A/C was running on 120 volts. His change doubled the power available to A/C, to 240 volts, which definitely make it work better, assuming it's designed for both 120 and 240 operation.

I plan to, eventually, discuss 120/240VAC systems, once I get through a lot of other stuff. (The majority of my outings are the dry camp variety so 120/240VAC systems aren't that important to me unless I'm at home and/or using a generator.)

Leeann and I have already mentioned what happens when you send 240 volts through circuits meant for 120 volts. In my case, an improperly wired outlet was the cause.

(Oh, BTW, Leeann -- 20 degrees (F) above zero is not cold ... it's merely a bit too chilly to wear shorts and t-shirts outside, unless you're a teenager.)

[eyeteeth]

I really hate dealing with Electrical... It's not my strong suit... So, I always dread it. I'm glad this one will work out on the easy scale.

I may not have been clear on the extra breaker... The 120 side has space for three 'normal' house size 'plug in' breakers. One was a 30 amp for the overall house system, which left 2 for the rest of the house. One was a 20 amp GFI for the exterior outlet and the bathroom... the other 20 amp had everything else. When turning on the air conditioner you could hear it starving for power. I found a 'plug in' breaker with 2 20 amp breakers in it. So I now have that in place which allowed me to put the Air Conditioner on it's own 20 Amp Circuit making it much happier when it is turned on. Does that make better sense? I can take a picture for you if you'd like.

To touch base on a few of your other comments... I understand. I do IT for a living. We're often judged by what we know and what we can figure out making it really hard to ask for opinions... especially when it's something simple. I frequently try and break this habit using examples of not being able to see the forest through the trees. Its very common for someone to be so deep in a project or troubleshooting that the answer is several layers back... but it's not on you mind because you're past it. I have many stories on the topic where guys could have saved hours... and even days... by simply asking an outside person for their thoughts. So... lead by example... lol, I ask. 😛

[Griff_in_Fairba]

Addendum: Eyeteeth, your experience is an example of a small problem in one part of a system causing "strange and wonderful" things to happen in other parts of the system. (Wonderful ... as in "I wonder what the hell is going on!")

I've previously stated this systems theory principle ... everyone who deals with systems has to learn it and keep it in mind.

[Griff_in_Fairba]

eyeteeth wrote:
Good news... But I'll answer your questions first.

The fuses are located in a single unit with the 120, and the battery charger. The unit was high end it its day, and monitors the battery charge so it doesn't constantly push full charge to the battery. Anyway, it has three AC fuses (except I bought one of those dual breakers so I could put the A/C on its own breaker, and 6 DC fuses... Only 4 are actually in use. They are the small glass tube style.

Moving on, I had a small epiphany earlier today, and did a little additional testing and was able to locate the source of the short. It is NOT on the 'hot' DC wire as I originally thought. It is actually the powered coax cable going up to the antenna. I disconnected it and tested everything else successfully. I remembered towards the end of last year having problems with TV reception and noticed the coax (after 30+ years) was a bit worse for wear. This is great as replacing that is a rather short, and should be a fairly easy pull for a replacement cable. Should have it worked out before the weekend even with my busy schedule. I am being rushed out the door to a soccer game... So any questions, or follow up clarifications, let me know... I am relieved. Yes... You were very good picking up on a level of frustration. 🙂

Congratulations! You managed to solve your problem on your own. To be perfectly honest, what you went through is identical to what I experience. Even after decades of experience, I still get frustrated and often have to spend days and even weeks thinking about and testing various things to find the source of a problem. So, in spite of being relatively inexperienced, you effectively followed the same process as more experienced people, including professionals.

Your relative inexperience actually gave you somewhat of an edge, causing you to look at things that are often overlooked by professionals. The transition from novice to expert is a difficult and potentially dangerous period, mostly due to overconfidence. For example, experienced woodworkers are more likely to hurt themselves than complete beginners. A true expert is someone who's learned to temper their confidence, usually through the school of hard knocks.

(There is such a thing as a novice professional ... in the military we called them Second Lieutenants.)

One thing you did well is talk over your problem with others. This is a technique experts find especially useful when dealing with an intractable problem. (Any person who thinks they can "do it all," without outside help, is ... Drats! I can't think of a strong enough term so describe my opinion of this type of people.) Whenever I've been tasked with putting together a team, I always insisted on including an inexperienced person. Officially, this was to provide on-the-job experience to beef up the Air Force's workforce. Actually it was selfish ... the novice often provided insight and perspectives that lead to improvements in the team's efforts.

(In the initial one-on-one meetings with these "novices," I'd tell them an important part of their job on the team was to ask "stupid" questions about things they didn't understand and, especially, things that the more experienced team members seemed to be taking for granted.)

Moving on to the situation at hand ...

120/240VAC (shore power) and 12VDC systems are effectively completely separate systems in motorhomes (and boats). There are, at most, only two points where the systems are interconnected: power converter/chargers and inverters. Converter/chargers convert 120VAC into 12VDC using step-down transformers and rectifiers. Inverters change 12VDC into 120VAC using step-up transformers and sine-wave generators. (Before anyone jumps on me, this is a simplified description in the interests of brevity. I'm well aware there are more complex and sophisiticated circuits to perform these two basic functions.)

In eyeteeth's case, the fact that both types of systems are present in the same box DOES NOT imply they are, in any way, interconnected, other than via the interface provided by the converter/charger. Within the box, they are still completely separate sytems and to think otherwise is a mistake.

Eyeteeth: Your "fuse box" sounds like a better than usual installation and is probably well engineered. (Power management panel would be a better name.) It's worked fine for decades and, if there's no obvious signs of detetioration or problems, I'd leave it alone. (If you're not sure, pay a licensed residential electrician to look at it.)

If you've already installed the extra circuit breakers, I'd take them back out and return things to original. If you haven't installed them, take them back to the store and get your money back. Otherwise, put them on the shelf for some future project.

Simply put, you're probably replicating what's already there and adding an unnecessary layer of complexity to your system.

The electrical systems in the coach part of a motorhome are essentially identical to residential houses. Decades ago, the only low-voltage circuits found in most homes were for thermostats and doorbells. These were typically powered by step-down transformers connected to the 120VAC system and usually mounted on common electrical boxes. (Back then, thermostats and doorbells didn't care if their power was AC or DC so their power source was usually just a transformer, without a rectifier.)

With the advent of "networked" houses came a lot more low-voltage circuits with more sophisticated power sources due to "finicky" electronics. This led to a slew of changes to regulations, including new sections mostly directed towards keeping low-voltage circuits separate from 120VAC circuits. (These changes give me headaches, even though I'm used to wading through and sorting out highly technical standards and regulations ... I'm waiting for things to settle down to a more unified single set of standards ... sometimes, innovation sucks.)

[Ballenxj]

eyeteeth wrote:
Good news...

That's WONDERFUL! And I'm sure a big relief. 😉

[eyeteeth]

Good news... But I'll answer your questions first.

The fuses are located in a single unit with the 120, and the battery charger. The unit was high end it its day, and monitors the battery charge so it doesn't constantly push full charge to the battery. Anyway, it has three AC fuses (except I bought one of those dual breakers so I could put the A/C on its own breaker, and 6 DC fuses... Only 4 are actually in use. They are the small glass tube style.

Moving on, I had a small epiphany earlier today, and did a little additional testing and was able to locate the source of the short. It is NOT on the 'hot' DC wire as I originally thought. It is actually the powered coax cable going up to the antenna. I disconnected it and tested everything else successfully. I remembered towards the end of last year having problems with TV reception and noticed the coax (after 30+ years) was a bit worse for wear. This is great as replacing that is a rather short, and should be a fairly easy pull for a replacement cable. Should have it worked out before the weekend even with my busy schedule. I am being rushed out the door to a soccer game... So any questions, or follow up clarifications, let me know... I am relieved. Yes... You were very good picking up on a level of frustration. 🙂

[Griff_in_Fairba]

eyeteeth wrote:
Griff...

Bad wire...

The Fuse box is about 2-3 feat behind the rear axle on the drivers side. The wire runs from there back into the wall... to never Reappear. The Lights and Outlets it powers are along the passenger side wall. The Antenna power booster, DC Outlet, and light directly under the window between the passenger door and the camper entrance door... and the exterior light. I honestly have no idea how/were that wire is run from one side of the camper to the other. I have no idea how long the actual wire is because I have no clue what path it is taking to get there. Straight line in the coach is 10-15 feet between... but being opposite sides, who knows the run. It has to be the longest run, and of course... therefor... the most likely to have developed a problem. Simple in concept. Will be difficult to complete. I'm not looking forward to it, and if I had extra $$$ would happily pay someone much more 'professional' than I.

Very good. This narrows things down a lot and provides info I can use as a starting point for helping you.

I kinda get the impression you're experiencing a lot of frustration. Take a deep breath. You and I can take things one step at a time and figure out how to fix your motorhome. This will involve a series of questions from me, and answers from you, to narrow down how to get things working again. This may also require pictures from you so I can actually see some things, rather than having you try to describe them. If you don't know how to post pictures, we'll find an easy way for you to do so.

To everyone reading this: Normally, I'd take one-on-one help to PMs to avoid "cluttering" this thread. However, I think leaving it public will prove informative to others as they watch the troubleshooting process.

Eyeteeth:

The fuse box ... is it a 120/240VAC box like you find in houses or 12VDC panel like you find under the dash in most vehicles? Does it have the round, screw-in fuses, roughly one inch in diameter or does it have glass tube fuses, roughly 1/4 inch in diameter and 3/8 to one inch in length, with metal caps on each end?

The location of the box leads me to believe it is the main fuse panel for the motorhome's 120/240VAC system. This is where they are typically located, close to the shore power connection.

[eyeteeth]

Griff...

Bad wire...

The Fuse box is about 2-3 feat behind the rear axle on the drivers side. The wire runs from there back into the wall... to never Reappear. The Lights and Outlets it powers are along the passenger side wall. The Antenna power booster, DC Outlet, and light directly under the window between the passenger door and the camper entrance door... and the exterior light. I honestly have no idea how/were that wire is run from one side of the camper to the other. I have no idea how long the actual wire is because I have no clue what path it is taking to get there. Straight line in the coach is 10-15 feet between... but being opposite sides, who knows the run. It has to be the longest run, and of course... therefor... the most likely to have developed a problem. Simple in concept. Will be difficult to complete. I'm not looking forward to it, and if I had extra $$$ would happily pay someone much more 'professional' than I.