P32 New Coil Springs Too Much?

[1969SSCamaro]

Hello All,
I am new to Class A MH ownership and want to thank everyone who runs and participates in this forum. I have spent untold hours researching forums and the amount of information and detail is greatly appreciated. My learning curve has literally been accelerated by years as I am able to understand common problems and weaknesses of the P32 chassis; so thank you very much!

A couple of months ago my wife and I purchased a 27’ 1995 Georgie Boy Pursuit with 37,000 miles. It has 454 TBI engine with front disc brakes and rear drum. The GVWR is 12,300, front GAWR is 4,880, rear GAWR is 10,000. Initial measured weights (me, wife, daughter, but no supplies, minimal fuel, water, etc) with 2,360lb horse trailer (no horse) in tow are: Front = 4,220, RV total = 11,800, RV+ trailer = 14,200. The chassis is 159” wheelbase; P31432.

Last week I completed the installation of Moog lower ball joints, new brake pads, brake bleed and Stengel Bros coil springs (PN 350-6560SD). The springs are rated at 3789 lbs each. I made a Guestimate that the stock springs were rated at 2789 lbs (??) and purchased these springs hoping to get rid of the airbags and gain an inch or two in lift. I ended up with a little over 3” of lift and now concerned that these springs are too much and will have to be replaced with 3289lb springs instead. My current/wishful thinking is to continue with rear end work/inspection/measurements and once complete, load her up for real; right now my wife has gutted the inside for renovation, so it will be a while before I can test drive it. I measured the suspension clearances after the new coils were installed and have RR = 4-1/8” , LR=4-1/2”, RF = 5-1/8”, LF = 5-1/4”. The chassis/frame currently sets about dead level, but it is not loaded at all, not to mention the horse trailer. Per the “P Chassis for Motorhomes General Information for Alignment, 5” is the max height listed in the table to determine proper caster. Am I dreaming that the 5+” of height could be okay? Comments, advice and experience welcome…………………

For reference, work completed to date includes; new oil, water and trans temp gauges, hitch reinforcement, trailer connector and wiring, front/rear sway bar bushings, Dale deep trans pan, radiator flush, SS bell crank, steering damper, brake pads, repack wheel bearings, thermostat and hoses. Work still planned includes; oil change, inspect spark plugs/wires, new master cylinder (mine is pile of rust)/fluid flush, rear brakes, brake controller installation, rear-end fluid change, shackle bushings, drum brake job, power steering fluid change and finally front-end alignment.

Thanks, Greg

[tropical36]

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:
Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

I've seen this listed both ways and can say this........with having only 1 3/4", not counting the rubber stop, is next to having nothing, but then I don't think I've seen this accepted 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" height ever listed, less the stops.

Page 18 Here. Also if you have bags in the coil springs the proper way to add air to them is to raise tires off ground let all the air out then inflate. Lower rv to ground and then you can reduce pressure for your likening.

After looking at the diagram and studying the chart for a Class A MH and after reviewing my previous statement, as well, I've decided to stick with said statement. Again, this is just IMHO and only worth what you're paying for it.
I do agree with what you're saying about the air bags and assuming one would insist on living with such, which is another example of trying to make a right, out of two wrongs. Having said that, the best engineers in the world, can't win against the bean counters.

Are you saying the manuals are wrong?

I'm saying that I still don't see the dimensions I specified, that doesn't include the stops on the chart. Just larger and since I don't know for sure, without crawling down under right now, what the stops measure, then the specs. could well be the same and there is more than one way to measure things, in most cases. One thing is for sure, the stops are going to make contact first and I for one, don't like hearing them doing that on a regular basis.

When someone or something tells you how to measure their is one way. Like in this case manual says to measure from iron to iron. :S

OK, one more and for the last time. Measure it with this manual (I've seen it both ways) or however you'd like and what I said originally, was that you should end up with 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" between the stops for proper alignment. Also the instructions you'll get from Henderson with their coils for doing it right, once and for all.

[1969SSCamaro]

Fortunately got it figured out about 30 minutes after last post. Appears I was done in by man's best friend, the mut. The dogs were in the MH "helping" my wife install carpet and the engine cover was off. One of the dogs slipped into the engine compartment and evidently stepped on one of the connectors next to the distributer. Not sure if it was part of the electronic ignition module or what, but as soon as my wife told me about the dogs, I started looking and found a loose connector. Anyway the MH handled really well in city traffic with the new springs, but I had planned to do a much longer test drive on the interstate. One thing I did notice was the calipers and/or wheel bearings seemed pretty warm. I measured the caliper at around 250 deg F and the rotor around 200 F. Also measured rotor temp right next to outside bearing and it was around 180 F. Based on that it seems like the heat is just the brakes. I did install ceramic pads and probably just hypersensitive since this was first drive with them. Anyone know what normal temp range might be for city driving; ambient temp was about 70 F and it was not excessive stop and go, but definitely lots of street lights.

[1969SSCamaro]

On My Cell Phone Typing. Stuck On Side Of Road. Maybe Fuel Filter, Vapor Lock. If I Wait Several Minutes It Will Start, But Only Goes A Few Hundred Feet Before Dying . Trying To Get To Walmartparking Lot And Diagnose Tomorrow. Any Thoughts Welcome. Will Provide More Detail Tonight.

[mike_brez]

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:
Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

I've seen this listed both ways and can say this........with having only 1 3/4", not counting the rubber stop, is next to having nothing, but then I don't think I've seen this accepted 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" height ever listed, less the stops.

Page 18 Here. Also if you have bags in the coil springs the proper way to add air to them is to raise tires off ground let all the air out then inflate. Lower rv to ground and then you can reduce pressure for your likening.

After looking at the diagram and studying the chart for a Class A MH and after reviewing my previous statement, as well, I've decided to stick with said statement. Again, this is just IMHO and only worth what you're paying for it.
I do agree with what you're saying about the air bags and assuming one would insist on living with such, which is another example of trying to make a right, out of two wrongs. Having said that, the best engineers in the world, can't win against the bean counters.

Are you saying the manuals are wrong?

I'm saying that I still don't see the dimensions I specified, that doesn't include the stops on the chart. Just larger and since I don't know for sure, without crawling down under right now, what the stops measure, then the specs. could well be the same and there is more than one way to measure things, in most cases. One thing is for sure, the stops are going to make contact first and I for one, don't like hearing them doing that on a regular basis.

When someone or something tells you how to measure their is one way. Like in this case manual says to measure from iron to iron. :S

[tropical36]

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:
Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

I've seen this listed both ways and can say this........with having only 1 3/4", not counting the rubber stop, is next to having nothing, but then I don't think I've seen this accepted 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" height ever listed, less the stops.

Page 18 Here. Also if you have bags in the coil springs the proper way to add air to them is to raise tires off ground let all the air out then inflate. Lower rv to ground and then you can reduce pressure for your likening.

After looking at the diagram and studying the chart for a Class A MH and after reviewing my previous statement, as well, I've decided to stick with said statement. Again, this is just IMHO and only worth what you're paying for it.
I do agree with what you're saying about the air bags and assuming one would insist on living with such, which is another example of trying to make a right, out of two wrongs. Having said that, the best engineers in the world, can't win against the bean counters.

Are you saying the manuals are wrong?

I'm saying that I still don't see the dimensions I specified, that doesn't include the stops on the chart. Just larger and since I don't know for sure, without crawling down under right now, what the stops measure, then the specs. could well be the same and there is more than one way to measure things, in most cases. One thing is for sure, the stops are going to make contact first and I for one, don't like hearing them doing that on a regular basis.

[mike_brez]

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:
Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

I've seen this listed both ways and can say this........with having only 1 3/4", not counting the rubber stop, is next to having nothing, but then I don't think I've seen this accepted 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" height ever listed, less the stops.

Page 18 Here. Also if you have bags in the coil springs the proper way to add air to them is to raise tires off ground let all the air out then inflate. Lower rv to ground and then you can reduce pressure for your likening.

After looking at the diagram and studying the chart for a Class A MH and after reviewing my previous statement, as well, I've decided to stick with said statement. Again, this is just IMHO and only worth what you're paying for it.
I do agree with what you're saying about the air bags and assuming one would insist on living with such, which is another example of trying to make a right, out of two wrongs. Having said that, the best engineers in the world, can't win against the bean counters.

Are you saying the manuals are wrong?

[tropical36]

mike brez wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:
Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

I've seen this listed both ways and can say this........with having only 1 3/4", not counting the rubber stop, is next to having nothing, but then I don't think I've seen this accepted 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" height ever listed, less the stops.

Page 18 Here. Also if you have bags in the coil springs the proper way to add air to them is to raise tires off ground let all the air out then inflate. Lower rv to ground and then you can reduce pressure for your likening.

After looking at the diagram and studying the chart for a Class A MH and after reviewing my previous statement, as well, I've decided to stick with said statement. Again, this is just IMHO and only worth what you're paying for it.
I do agree with what you're saying about the air bags and assuming one would insist on living with such, which is another example of trying to make a right, out of two wrongs. Having said that, the best engineers in the world, can't win against the bean counters.

[mike_brez]

tropical36 wrote:

mike brez wrote:
Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

I've seen this listed both ways and can say this........with having only 1 3/4", not counting the rubber stop, is next to having nothing, but then I don't think I've seen this accepted 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" height ever listed, less the stops.

Page 18 Here. Also if you have bags in the coil springs the proper way to add air to them is to raise tires off ground let all the air out then inflate. Lower rv to ground and then you can reduce pressure for your likening.

[tropical36]

mike brez wrote:
Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

I've seen this listed both ways and can say this........with having only 1 3/4", not counting the rubber stop, is next to having nothing, but then I don't think I've seen this accepted 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" height ever listed, less the stops.

[mike_brez]

Iron to iron is the correct way to measure. Forget about the rubber stop.

[1969SSCamaro]

Good news! Got everything back together and replaced the master brake cylinder. The height between the rubber bumper and cross member is 2" on both sides (or 4-7/8" from the bumper mount). I assume the spring not being seated correctly on the left side brought both sides within spec. Hope to do a test drive tomorrow to see how it feels. Thanks for all the input/help. I will send another update after we take it for a spin.

[tropical36]

1969SSCamaro wrote:
Tropical,
I have been relying on the doc below. It seems to be very thorough and details what should be inspected/measured before an alignment is done http://users.sisna.com/cebula/P-Chassis-AlignmentProcess.pdf

I did not finish post below and meant to say "and points out some of the" weak components and/or componenets prone to wear out on P chassis. It also discusses some well known remedies for poor handling.

I see what you're talking about, but in most cases with the factory OEM coils and airbags, the ride height is pretty much set and the same. Thing is, a lot of this will go out the window with an after market product anyway and as I've said before, I'm only familiar with the Henderson product. With my install, not only did the pesky airbags go away, but the factory installed 50lb. Helwig buggy spring, as well.

[1969SSCamaro]

Tropical,
I have been relying on the doc below. It seems to be very thorough and details what should be inspected/measured before an alignment is done http://users.sisna.com/cebula/P-Chassis-AlignmentProcess.pdf

I did not finish post below and meant to say "and points out some of the" weak components and/or componenets prone to wear out on P chassis. It also discusses some well known remedies for poor handling.

[1969SSCamaro]

Yesterday was good and bad day as I had to remove/install one of the ball joints I had just replaced 3 weeks ago. I noticed that the left spring was not properly seated on the cross-member and removed the lower A arm to reposition the spring. That is when I noticed a gouge in the ball joint stud and realized it was a P30 van ball joint (Ugh). But, I was very very lucky the spring was not positioned properly as I never would have known until I destroyed the spindle. Anyway, another lesson learned; I should have inspected both new ball joints prior to installation. I would have noticed the difference in the taper. The parts store sold me two MOOG-K6129T, so I thought, but one was MOOG-K6129 (no "T" at the end). The spindle had a gouge as well, so I smoothed it out prior to installation. Today I will replace the master cylinder and hopefully have time for an initial test drive today or tomorrow.