Plant Tour

[jeffo]

Today we took a tour of one of Thor’s plants in Elkhart,IN. The young man that gave the tour worked in sales and was really seemed to know the process well. I bought a new Thor Daybreak in 2013 and had all the common problems plus a hole in the gas tank, cracked fresh water tank, tv’s had to be rewired, the grill fell off, etc. I did not say anything about my problems (I would not want to call him out in front of a tour group) but someone else mentioned some problems they had with theirs. His reply bothered me. He said there was no way that they could check everything on every coach and that if you buy a new coach you can expect to have problems for the first 3 or so months after the purchase and that every brand has problems.

I work in the automotive lift business and we strive for nothing less than 100% satisfaction.We do not not always hit it but that is always the goal.

[tatest]

I visited three different RV production operations before buying, two more since. Even in a common price range, building practices are not the same.

There are two places a company can manage cost, one is in the design or engineering and choice of materials, the other is in production methods. Even at the wages being paid, labor is still the biggest cost for most RVs, and the more the process can be automated, the lower the cost and better the quality. For automation, you have to come closer to building them all the same, which means the production worker is not figuring out where and how to route wiring and plumbing, deciding how many fasteners to use, etc. He has to be following specifications specific to model being built, another quality variable thus taken out of the equation.

Buying at entry level prices, I don't expect perfection, but by choosing a manufacturer using semi-automated production methods, writing detailed specifications for laborers to follow, having a multi-stage inspection program using independent inspectors rather than letting a production team write off its own work are all part of a process working toward quality management in mass production. I chose a brand because of what I saw of the process.

You can also get quality from "craftsman" builds, but you can't get that at low price points. However, that is a direction I might go if I buy another RV. The choices here are few, and you usually have to order it and wait for it to be built.

[LongWeekends]

I toured that plant as well with one of their sales guys...maybe the same guy. He told me they pay their employees via piecework. I asked if that created a quality problem. With no hesitation he said absolutely. He also said they have incredibly high turn over that also gives them a lot of quality issues.

It's a shame but I guess that is the price you pay for being forced to hit a low price point.

[Bruce_Brown]

If your expectation as a company is there will be problems then sure enough, there will be problems.

I can honestly say we've bought (3) new Newmars, and be it original quality control or just great dealer PDI, the 3 combined spent a total of exactly ZERO days getting "the bugs worked out".

Apparently Thor doesn't expect that. Sad really.

[Effy]

DrewE wrote:


If RV buyers demanded (and were willing to pay for) consistent quality, I suspect the builders would be able to achieve that...after a lot of (possibly painful) work.

But RV buyers have spoken. And continue to speak in droves. Buyers would rather have bling and low prices than quality. You cannot have both.

[RLS7201]

Yesterday I spent some time looking for an electrical problem on a 2017 Georgetown. While I didn't find the problem, I did find 8 inline fuses buried in various nooks and corners, with no labeling on the wires to indicate what the fuses were for. Such fuses should be in a central location (fuse box) with labels. Very poor engineering.

Richard

[Bumpyroad]

DrewE wrote:
Outgoing quality levels for chips (once through production and testing) are measured in DPM -- defective parts per million, somewhere in the low 100's range I think for typical consumer-level chips. (I may be off on that; I'm a couple steps removed from such details.) That doesn't mean that the production line makes 99.99% good chips, not by a long shot; but through thorough automated testing, the bad ones are virtually all screened out.
.

yep, if 100% testing is possible there should be few failures. unfortunately can't realistically do that on a RV.
years back I bought a Chevelle (IIRC) and the salesman said when I picked it up that it was not a Rolls Royce so just keep a note book with the little things taht will need to be tidied up.
bumpy

[Calicajun]

I write instructions for a living. There is no way I'm going to tell an Air Force or Navy pilot to except problems for the first three month of flying. This is something I hear from every RV dealer I have shopped at over the last year. Their favorite saying is "when you buy a RV you must have a sense of humor and a tool box". This is something that should not be required if the management knew how to run there shop correctly.

[DownTheAvenue]

DrewE wrote:
It would probably have been more accurate to say that they can't check everything at their current price points. With enough money, everything (or practically everything) could be checked.

This is exactly correct. Lots of minor issues, i.e. adjustments, are preformed (hopefully) at the dealer level during the pre-delivery process. The costs of that inspection and correction are passed onto the dealer. The balance of issues then become warranty claims and those total less than the costs of eliminating all issues altogether during the manufacturing process.

Many decades ago, a car dealer spent considerable time and money preparing an automobile for delivery. Many adjustments and corrections were necessary. Now, all a dealer does is wash the car and remove protective plastic coverings before delivery. Through automation and other manufacturing techniques, car manufacturers now have resolved most pre-delivery and warranty issues. However, look how the costs of automobile products have increased.

[DrewE]

It would probably have been more accurate to say that they can't check everything at their current price points. With enough money, everything (or practically everything) could be checked.

I work for a company in the chip making business. Making chips is a very complex and involved process, and requires generally more stringent quality control than building trailers or motorhomes, if only because smaller errors/faults will cause significant problems. Outgoing quality levels for chips (once through production and testing) are measured in DPM -- defective parts per million, somewhere in the low 100's range I think for typical consumer-level chips. (I may be off on that; I'm a couple steps removed from such details.) That doesn't mean that the production line makes 99.99% good chips, not by a long shot; but through thorough automated testing, the bad ones are virtually all screened out.

Exactly how much time (and hence money) is spent on testing and verification depends to a large extent on the value of the chip and of the device it goes into. A chip destined for a satellite, for instance, where repair or replacement in outer space would cost billions, will receive far more testing and verification than one that goes into a $10 wristwatch.

If RV buyers demanded (and were willing to pay for) consistent quality, I suspect the builders would be able to achieve that...after a lot of (possibly painful) work.

[crasster]

jeffo wrote:
Today we took a tour of one of Thor’s plants in Elkhart,IN. The young man that gave the tour worked in sales and was really seemed to know the process well. I bought a new Thor Daybreak in 2013 and had all the common problems plus a hole in the gas tank, cracked fresh water tank, tv’s had to be rewired, the grill fell off, etc. I did not say anything about my problems (I would not want to call him out in front of a tour group) but someone else mentioned some problems they had with theirs. His reply bothered me. He said there was no way that they could check everything on every coach and that if you buy a new coach you can expect to have problems for the first 3 or so months after the purchase and that every brand has problems.

I work in the automotive lift business and we strive for nothing less than 100% satisfaction.We do not not always hit it but that is always the goal.

YIKES. This should NOT be a standard. I wish companies would stop trying to be so big and actually slow down for a change.

[Bumpyroad]

reminds me of my visit to the airstream plant in Ohio to see their B van. at that time they were making class As also. the sales rep taking me around was not enthusiastic about the As, body language indicated do not buy one.
bumpy

[Teacher_s_Pet]

So I wonder where he's working today?

[Gjac]

I think he was just being truthful. I'm sure his management would have given a different response.

[dblr]

With a response like that I think I would have just said thanks for the short tour and left.