Suspension Improvements - Best Order

[S1njin]

So what is the consensus best order of suspension improvements on a E450 motorhome?

My guess:
Proper tire pressure
Front end alignment
Rear Sway
Front Sway
Shocks
Steering Stabilizer
Rear Track Bar

Am i close?

[Harvard]

S1njin wrote:
Well I went to get my rig and ended up leaving it there another night. 3.5 caster? No thanks, at least 5 or bust !

Post by 2kGeorgieBoy

Re Wandering at highway speeds
Reply #36 on: March 14, 2018, 09:07:02 PM


START QUOTE:
Jeff..Although we have a 2000 Georgie Boy 31' Maverick "C" on a Ford E450 chassis, I can fully agree on the caster effects, at least for us. When we got the unit in Jan 2014, the dealer had us take into a truck shop for an alignment. It turned out OK....A trip to Moab shortly there after brought out the problems. I then started reading the threads and comments here about the caster settings....esp., from Harvard. I checked the data from the first alignment and found that it was set at about 3 1/2 degrees positive...about in the middle of Ford's recommended range. Shortly before a cross country trip to Maryland in fall of 2016, I returned to the shop where the first alignment was done. I talked to the service manager and he knew of the problems with the E450's and was happy to increase the caster as I asked. The alignment tech was also familiar with it and ended up with settings close to 5.5 degrees positive. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! The unit tracked straight down the road, passing semis no longer caused a white knuckle hold on the wheel, and overall it was just a lot more enjoyable. It did however increase steering effort a little but not anything to worry about. But, be sure that the shop you go to is willing to "think outside of the box". Our first alignment was "plain vanilla", right in the middle like it was always done. Second time out, they were very willing to increase settings beyond what normally would be done, and still stay with in Ford's guidelines (0-7 degrees, I believe). I realize that our E450 chassis is an entirely different animal than yours, but I was trying to add support to the caster increase thinking and how it helped us......if you go down that road.
END QUOTE:

[S1njin]

Well I went to get my rig and ended up leaving it there another night. 3.5 caster? No thanks, at least 5 or bust !

[txnese]

I installed Bilstein 24-174534 5100 Series Steering Damper, Bilstein 33-187570 B6 Series HD Shock Absorber (Front), and Bilstein 33-176857 B6 Series HD Shock Absorber (Rear). Also changed out the Sway Bars with Helwig HEL-7008 (Front) and HEL-7180 (Rear). What a difference in ride quality and stability. No Regrets here. Took me about 2-3 hours total.

[Solo]

S1njin wrote:
So what is the consensus best order of suspension improvements on a E450 motorhome?

My guess:
Proper tire pressure
Front end alignment
Rear Sway
Front Sway
Shocks
Steering Stabilizer
Rear Track Bar

Am i close?

On our formerly owned E450, I did all of those myself (and a few more) in a systematic procedure one-by-one and then tested to see the differences. So many variables here (road conditions, wind, towing or not, loads, driver preference, etc) that it is impossible to use my experiences as "this is how it should be done" but, our motorhomes were very similar in size so here goes for whatever it is worth in the order that I did them (doing it again, I would do the alignment in #2 spot):

1. Tire PSI-got accurate load data from a certified scale and used the Michelin data to adjust. Result: smoother ride, less lane drifting.
2. Shocks-Replaced 2 year old factory shocks with Bilstein. Result: Less "jarring" on expansion joints, less rocking side-to-side, nice improvement.
3. Roadmaster Reflex Steering Stabalizer-Result, centering on crowned road surfaces was appreciated.
4. Alignment: I had way too much + camber, not enough + toe and not nearly enough + caster. Result: Much less wandering at highway speed, drastically improved tire wear (from decreasing + camber).
5. Front and rear sway bars. Replaced the factory Ford front and rear with Helwigs. Result: Reduced side-to-side sway and minimized being pushed around-good improvement.
6. Rear panhard bar (track bar). Result: No noticeable difference.
7. Rear air bags (the original motorhome had none). Result-less "pounding" on expansion joints from the rear, smoothed the ride, nice improvement.

In the end, a predictable chassis to drive in most situations. Wind was still our enemy and living in the Great Plains, we know wind.

Yes, you are close. Good luck with your challenge.

[j-d]

Ron IS an engineer with the disciplined mindset that comes with it.
Me? Experience, much gained the hard way... mistake. So, put BORG custom valves from CW or duallyvalve.com so you can check quickly and often.
You will find the tires have not lost air like they did with OEM or rubber valves, extensions and such.
If pressure is down, something is wrong. Start looking for that roofing nail, drywall screw etc.
I can check six tires and two airbags in a minute or two. That's ALL not Each. And with any gauge.
Airing up is 3 months or so.
Don't forget the SPARE.

[S1njin]

I've got 2 of those digital ones you posted about. They are within .5 psi of each other, so I've been using those as my accurate gauges. The gauge I use w/ the double chuck tire filler is off by 4psi on the stingy side. So I know I need to add 4 to whatever that gauge tells me.

[ron_dittmer]

Yes, 5 psi makes a difference. That is why having an accurate tire gauge is critical. Click Here to read a post I wrote on my experience evalating all my tire gauges. What I thought was my best tire gauge, was my worst, off by whopping 9 psi.

[j-d]

S1njin wrote:
..It’s amazing what 5 pounds in the front will diií

Thank you for saying that!
Proper pressure is always a factor.
Ford E-Series with RV on its back, it is essential.
Take pressure from Michelin Chart based on actual truck scale weight. Loaded for camping, people and all.
Add a few PSI..3+4..if tires are warm.
Don't play Outguess The Engineer.
Cash in on the Hard Earned Experience of others.

[Harvard]

Not just +5 Caster, take all you can get.

[S1njin]

So I put about 250 miles on her this weekend. The ride out with 75 in the fronts wasn’t bad. The ride back with 70 was a whole lot better. It’s amazing what 5 pounds in the front will do. I didn’t weigh myself yet, but my Greyhawk was 5 feet longer and 800 pounds heavier from the factory and I could have put 70s in the fronts after weighing on the way to Disney for 10 days. I didn’t see myself at risk in my more modestly proportioned camper.

So tomorrow is alignment day at the truck shop. I’ll ask for plus 5 caster when I drop it off.

[pnichols]

OFDPOS wrote:
Have you weighed your MH fully loaded for travel ?

Yes.

OFDPOS wrote:
The Bilstein's are HD shocks NOT "stiff" shocks.

Then what are Bilstein's Comfort shocks? I'm willing to bet that Bilstein means for their "HD" shocks to be stiffer than their "Comfort" shocks. Some suppliers that sell Bilstein shocks actually recommend different part nos. for small cutaway van based motorhomes versus other Bilstein part nos. for larger cutaway van based motorhomes. All this is confusing, to say the least.

OFDPOS wrote:
Koni's FSD did a good write up sales pitch on their shocks, they even have you preaching their sales pitch advertisement.

Please refute point by point why what they say doesn't make sense based on the physics of what's happening with respect to unsprung weight, spring rate, RV weight, and type of road surfaces. As I understand it, some race cars use special $$$$ variable damping rate shocks that adjust automatically several times per second.

After reading about the Koni FSD shock technology years ago I looked into buying them for our Ford E-Series based Class C motorhome and they were not offering them at the time ... only for the Class A and Class C+ motorhome chassis. I called Koni and discussed with them the need for FSD shock models for the popular Ford and Chevy cutaway van chassis being used in so many U.S. Class C motorhomes. A couple of years later Koni introduced part nos. for the 3X and 4X class LD truck chassis - including the Ford E-350/E-450 and Chevy 3500/4500 van chassis.

[OFDPOS]

pnichols wrote:

OFDPOS wrote:
Here is a blog about porpoising and you can feel good because it talks about the koni's FSD shock.

http://blog.goodsam.com/porpoising-what-it-is-and-how-to-stop-it

Like another post I said the Koni's helped with the slam over the bridge joints and major cracks in the road.
BUT so did the Bilstein's and had I gone with them I'd have close to $300 in my pocket.
The place where I had my alignment done stated how the koni's were designed to work as you described...Rebound BUT I'll take a front end NOT diving down every time I hit a dip in the road over the uneasy feeling of the knoi's .. They sell both the Bilstein's and Koni's But I think they were a little bias, the co-owner was wearing a jacket with a koni patch on it... lol

I'll leave the koni's on the rear, but I see in the near future swapping the konis FSD's out for Bilstein's in the front..

I read the article in the link you gave above and it did speak highly of the Koni FSD shocks.

The article also stated that porpoising seems to be more predominate in short motorhomes ... which is exactly what I have ... but for some reason I've never noticed any of this effect that is described in the article.

What I did notice was the pounding in the rear due to my overkill chassis, and the FSD shocks did help with this. I hope the FSD shocks do the same for the stiff front coil springs when the OEM front shocks finally - if ever - wear out. I really can't see how adding stiff shocks to leaf or coil springs that already may be too stiff can help with cracks and potholes.

Have you weighed your MH fully loaded for travel ?

The Bilstein's are HD shocks NOT "stiff" shocks.

Have you run both Koni's and Bilstein's back to back ??

I have so I'm speaking of first hand experience and not what I read in some article or hearsay from others.
I'm not satisfied with the koni's ! I was with the Bilstein's , and I'll say it again reading posts here last year and how other forum members spoke so highly of the koni's I went with them this time around. Wished I didn't ,,, Big mistake on my part..

I think alot go by if its more money it "must" be better.
Then when they spent the more money they won't admit they should have went the cheaper route which would have been better ...

Koni's FSD did a good write up sales pitch on their shocks, they even have you preaching their sales pitch advertisement.

I've admitted since the day I put them on and road tested it. I straight up said I wasted my money and wasn't happy with the ride of the koni's and should have went with my gut feeling and NOT listen to the ones preaching the shock that walks on water its so good.

What looks /sounds good on paper doesn't always transfer to what actually works good in the real world ...

I'm done beating this dead horse, I know what works and doesn't work as for the shocks. And for me the koni's don't work on the front of my MH.

But YMMV 😉

[pnichols]

OFDPOS wrote:
Here is a blog about porpoising and you can feel good because it talks about the koni's FSD shock.

http://blog.goodsam.com/porpoising-what-it-is-and-how-to-stop-it

Like another post I said the Koni's helped with the slam over the bridge joints and major cracks in the road.
BUT so did the Bilstein's and had I gone with them I'd have close to $300 in my pocket.
The place where I had my alignment done stated how the koni's were designed to work as you described...Rebound BUT I'll take a front end NOT diving down every time I hit a dip in the road over the uneasy feeling of the knoi's .. They sell both the Bilstein's and Koni's But I think they were a little bias, the co-owner was wearing a jacket with a koni patch on it... lol

I'll leave the koni's on the rear, but I see in the near future swapping the konis FSD's out for Bilstein's in the front..

I read the article in the link you gave above and it did speak highly of the Koni FSD shocks.

The article also stated that porpoising seems to be more predominate in short motorhomes ... which is exactly what I have ... but for some reason I've never noticed any of this effect that is described in the article.

What I did notice was the pounding in the rear due to my overkill chassis, and the FSD shocks did help with this. I hope the FSD shocks do the same for the stiff front coil springs when the OEM front shocks finally - if ever - wear out. I really can't see how adding stiff shocks to leaf or coil springs that already may be too stiff can help with cracks and potholes.

[S1njin]

Well both bars are on as of last weekend and we take the coach out for its maiden trip next weekend. That following Monday it goes into the truck shop for its alignment.

Lets see how I end up !