Tires - To Sipe or Not to Sipe Toyo M154s

[KendallP]

Hey gang,

I'm leaning a certain direction, but I'm interested in your opinions without the influence of my research.

Normally, I would not consider siping in favor of buying the right tire for the job and letting the engineers of the manufacturer decide how much or little siping to add.

But this is one case where I would consider it. Read on to find out why.


The Rig:
2004 Winnebago Journey 34H DP on a Freightliner Chassis
GVWR - About 28,000 lbs

OEM Tires:
Michelin XRV 255/80R 22.5

Replacement Tires:
Toyo M154 265/75R 22.5
(The last set of these went 10 years and looked like new, inside and out, with 10,000 miles on them)

Driving conditions:
Mostly Oregon and western states
Wet, dry. Hot summers. Rarely snow, but possible.


Unlike the Defender LTX M/S tires on the wife's Highlander, these particular Michelins have a very poor reputation for early sidewall cracking and such. And... as "luck" would have it, they must have worked a deal with Freightliner in order to get their own, proprietary tire size for these rigs.

The similarly-sized, Toyo M154s are known to be one of 2 preferred replacements for the way-overpriced Michelins. Toyo considers them All-Position commercial tires. "Recommended" for steers in long-haul, regional and urban. "Suitable" for drives in regional and urban, but for trailer when it comes to long-haul. Makes sense to me. I usually see more aggressive tread on the commercial drives around here. Of course... tires like those would be louder than these Toyos.

The tread patterns are very similar, but I noticed what almost appears to be aftermarket siping in photos of the Michelins and Michelin does brag on the siping in their description.

The Toyos have already been installed by Les Schwab Tires. They still performs the siping service. Since they were installed so recently, they want $113 total to remove, sipe and replace all 6. Definitely not doing that for profit. Especially since the rubber alone weighs almost a hundred pounds. I would require they still warranty the tires in writing.

Note: I was able to resize the Toyo photo, no problem. But I keep running into a stretching issue with the Michelen. It's a 3x2 aspect ratio. Resizing to 600x400 or 300x200 should work, but it doesn't. It stretches it really wide. So for now, you're stuck scrolling to read. Sorry.

[Blaster_Man]

LouLawrence wrote:
No siping. Run the tire the way it was designed.

Agree, not necessary.

[valhalla360]

KendallP wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
I'm not missing the point. I just don't see why anyone would consider this....

...If the tires are not appropriate or satisfactory for the vehicle/conditions, then siping will not make them suddenly appropriate or satisfactory. The only solution for that is to replace them with different tires.

If the Michelin tires are siped by the manufacturer, then I would contact them and ask why they need to sipe them before making a decision. If they are siped aftermarket but before purchase, then I would not buy from that shop.

I guess I thought the point was clear.

The Michelins... are the OEM. And the OEM tread. They are siped.

BUT... they are known to be of poor quality. And not because of the siping.

The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements. But they are not the same tire... nor tread... as the OEM. They are really a commercial steer / trailer tire. Great for steers. But less than ideal for drives.

There is no ideal choice here. There is no "solution... to replace them (the Toyos) with different tires." The unique size leaves fewer than usual options. One can have a "best" solution without it being an ideal one.
.

Who are these people you keep referring to? The average MH owner has little to no knowledge of tire design...so your assertions regarding quality are suspect to begin with.

I stand by my original statement that if it was needed, the manufacturer would provide it.

[rgatijnet1]

Since the siping on the Michelin tire picture is curved/angled in the top picture it certainly looks like it was molded rather than someone taking a heat knife and cutting uniform angle cuts along the edge. Way too labor intensive for production tires.

[KendallP]

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Here is something about tire siping with factory and aftermarket. I can assure you that neither Michelin, nor any other tire brand, cuts their tires after they are molded. Tire siping

Yeah, that one came up in my research too, but thanks!

None of those look like the photo in the OP. And I looked around google photos and saw other Michelin XRVs with the same slits.

Did you see the OP photo?

[rgatijnet1]

Here is something about tire siping with factory and aftermarket. I can assure you that neither Michelin, nor any other tire brand, cuts their tires after they are molded. Tire siping

[KendallP]

rgatijnet1 wrote:
From a tire warehouse dealer:
Aftermarket siping can void manufacturer’s treadwear warranty. Also, while siping might provide some nominal increases in traction, you are much better off spending the extra money you would have spent on that service on better tires with appropriate siping and tread.

Aftermarket siping may decrease the tread life of your tire. The engineering, high level of construction of the rubber compound and manufacturing process ensure that pre-molded sipes in the tread do not work against the expected tread life of the tire. Siping itself also reduces dry road performance as it increases tread squirm, tread wear, road noise and reduces gas mileage.

The Michelin tires have pre-molded sipes which were designed as part of the overall tire tread.

Judging by the photo in the OP, I'm not sure about that last sentence.

Also... tread life matters not to most motorhome owners. Age is the bigger concern. The last set on this rig was changed out at 10 years and only about 10,000 miles. The next change-out will likely be 6 years and less than 10,000.

But yes. Tread squirm is a concern of mine.

As for better tires? Very few options to replace the proprietary OEM tire size.

Also... I believe Les Scwhab has their own warranty that goes above and beyond the manufacturers'. They are known for good service. And you pay a premium for it. Often Michelin prices for Dean and other mid-level brands.

Toyota installed the wife's latest Michelins. Their latest special (Buy 3, get the 4th for a dollar) was tough to pass up! Before that, it was a tire shop in a town about a half hour south.

Les could get the Michelins. But at a HEAVY premium. Good on the salesman for talking me out of going through them for those tires.

But for truck and motorhome tires? They're pretty much the best game in town.

Thanks for weighing in.

[KendallP]

toedtoes wrote:
Ah! So you bought the RV with factory siped Michelins already on it. And are deciding to replace with the same (factory siped michelins) or Toyos.

In that case, my last comment stands. I would question Michelin as to why they sipe their own tires. Is it done in accordance with their engineers to provide the best tire? Or is it a cheap fix for an engineering mistake?

My guess would be the latter.

Ha!

You may be right. If so... I doubt Michelin will admit it.

But no. The rig is on it's 3rd set and as many owners. 1. The OEM Michelins. 2. The Toyo M154s. 3. The 2nd set of Toyo M154s.

The Michelins were never an option. They are notorious for coming apart at the sidewalls. But that doesn't mean their tread design or the siping is bad.

But yeah... the siping looks like very similar to what the tire shop does.

MY guess is... they wanted more traction without the expense of redesigning the mold... for a tire that doesn't sell much... because of its terrible reputation among it's target market. Tire Rack has a "whopping" 3 reviews of the XRV. The first was in 2011. What does that tell you?

BUT... in addition... one might ASSume that the engineers... who approved the plan... were comfortable enough with the idea... knowing the company would still have to honor the warranty, including threat of lawsuit if they ever became known to come apart at risk to life and limb.

I'm also reminded that the Toyo tread depth is 19/32 vs 16 for the Michelins. So more room for water in those channels.

Most who have converted to the Toyos report a quiet, smooth ride. Some say better than the Michelins.

I don't have a frame of reference, but I'll say this... she rides smooth and quiet. Can't hear the tires from the cabin.

[rgatijnet1]

From a tire warehouse dealer:
Aftermarket siping can void manufacturer’s treadwear warranty. Also, while siping might provide some nominal increases in traction, you are much better off spending the extra money you would have spent on that service on better tires with appropriate siping and tread.

Aftermarket siping may decrease the tread life of your tire. The engineering, high level of construction of the rubber compound and manufacturing process ensure that pre-molded sipes in the tread do not work against the expected tread life of the tire. Siping itself also reduces dry road performance as it increases tread squirm, tread wear, road noise and reduces gas mileage.

The Michelin tires have pre-molded sipes which were designed as part of the overall tire tread.

[toedtoes]

KendallP wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
I'm not missing the point. I just don't see why anyone would consider this....

...If the tires are not appropriate or satisfactory for the vehicle/conditions, then siping will not make them suddenly appropriate or satisfactory. The only solution for that is to replace them with different tires.

If the Michelin tires are siped by the manufacturer, then I would contact them and ask why they need to sipe them before making a decision. If they are siped aftermarket but before purchase, then I would not buy from that shop.

I guess I thought the point was clear.

The Michelins... are the OEM. And the OEM tread. They are siped.

BUT... they are known to be of poor quality. And not because of the siping.

The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements. But they are not the same tire... nor tread... as the OEM. They are really a commercial steer / trailer tire. Great for steers. But less than ideal for drives.

There is no ideal choice here. There is no "solution... to replace them (the Toyos) with different tires." The unique size leaves fewer than usual options. One can have a "best" solution without it being an ideal one.
.

Ah! So you bought the RV with factory siped Michelins already on it. And are deciding to replace with the same (factory siped michelins) or Toyos.

In that case, my last comment stands. I would question Michelin as to why they sipe their own tires. Is it done in accordance with their engineers to provide the best tire? Or is it a cheap fix for an engineering mistake?

My guess would be the latter.

[KendallP]

Walaby wrote:
x3.

I agree with Toedtoes and valhalla.

But re-reading your OP for the second or third time, my impression is you're looking for validation for a decision you've already made. If so, just do it. No need to explain to us the decision.

Curious how an aftermarket business who does the siping (Les Schwab) can be held to the original manufacturer's (Michelin's). If you get them to agree, kudo's to you.

Good luck with your decision.

Mike

Actually... no. I had already decided against it. As I said in the OP, I was looking for your opinions. And I do appreciate them. Especially since they reinforce my own.

🙂

I left a clue in post #4.

After a lot of research, I was leaning away from the idea. That link... (and 2 subsequent links to be found within it)... was the final linchpin.

I will say this in favor of it...

1. IMO, the CR test was flawed... at least in terms of this particular debate. They used 2 tires that already had a ton of siping from the factory. These Toyos have virtually none. While the Michelins they've replaced... do.

2. Other than CR, virtually every expert said the siping would likely garner better wet, snow and ice performance; possibly at a loss of tread life. But it's a virtual certainty that these Toyos will be changed out within 6 or 7 years... likely with something like only 10,000 miles. This rig is a family camper. Not a globe trotter.

But... of course... there is also the possibility of greater road noise, lesser dry performance... death of the warranty... and... I just don't like the idea of taking decades of engineering out of the experienced engineers' hands... and placing it into those of a tire shop.

Also... the tires were well proven by the previous owner... whom I knew very well. He just didn't do much driving in the rain and zero in the snow.
.

[KendallP]

valhalla360 wrote:
Got to agree with toedtoes on this one.

Unless you are aware of a design defect that siping corrects, they would have siped them at the factory if it was needed.

See reply to toadtoes above...

[KendallP]

toedtoes wrote:
I'm not missing the point. I just don't see why anyone would consider this....

...If the tires are not appropriate or satisfactory for the vehicle/conditions, then siping will not make them suddenly appropriate or satisfactory. The only solution for that is to replace them with different tires.

If the Michelin tires are siped by the manufacturer, then I would contact them and ask why they need to sipe them before making a decision. If they are siped aftermarket but before purchase, then I would not buy from that shop.

I guess I thought the point was clear.

The Michelins... are the OEM. And the OEM tread. They are siped.

BUT... they are known to be of poor quality. And not because of the siping.

The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements. But they are not the same tire... nor tread... as the OEM. They are really a commercial steer / trailer tire. Great for steers. But less than ideal for drives.

There is no ideal choice here. There is no "solution... to replace them (the Toyos) with different tires." The unique size leaves fewer than usual options. One can have a "best" solution without it being an ideal one.
.

[way2roll]

Read this on a google search: "In most states, tire siping is illegal. This process modifies a footprint approved by the Department of Transportation, which will void its highway usability. Added slits will shorten the service life and hinder its performance, even if they increase traction."

[Walaby]

x3.

I agree with Toedtoes and valhalla.

But re-reading your OP for the second or third time, my impression is you're looking for validation for a decision you've already made. If so, just do it. No need to explain to us the decision.

Curious how an aftermarket business who does the siping (Les Schwab) can be held to the original manufacturer's (Michelin's). If you get them to agree, kudo's to you.

Good luck with your decision.

Mike

[valhalla360]

KendallP wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
So, you buy tires that were carefully researched and developed by the manufacterer and someone at a tire shop recommends they make a bunch of slashes in the tire to make it work better...

If the tire isn't performing to standards, get new tires.

Respectfully, you missed the point. No one said the tire isn't performing to standards.

It's all in the OP.

Got to agree with toedtoes on this one.

Unless you are aware of a design defect that siping corrects, they would have siped them at the factory if it was needed.