3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[cecilpwv]

Throw the toggle over towards the 120V receptacle the full output of the generator will then be available there only.

Congratulations on your success, allpraisebob, and thanks for sharing the picute of the completed work with us. I am curious, though, why is full 120v output available only at the 20amp outlet. According to your schematic the 30amp outlet should be getting the same juice when the toggle is in throw position #2.

Also, if it is true, unless I am misunderstanding you, that only the 20amp outlet gets full current, then wouldn't you want to upgrade that outlet to a 30amp plug?

[Richdel]

Elda wrote:
Richdel,

If you are planning to use a generator as a house backup, doesn't it need to have three phase 220V or something? I'm not sure all generators are able to provide 220V that can replace the normal input to a house through a transfer box or that can even be split into two 110V circuits.

At least I have heard some smarter people than I complain about this.

Make sure you get a generator that will do the job you want, otherwise it will just be a waist of money.

Now I'm going to study what allpraisebob did and see if I can follow it.

Elda, thanks for the reply.
I wasn't really clear with my previous post.
I am looking only for emergency backup power, 120v for my sump pump. I have a very wet sump. I have lost power in the past and the french drain eventually overflows. I will be running a cord from the genny directly to the sump pump, so no transfer switch installation needed.

Back to my original question. Are all the amps available from 1-120v outlet? As I stated before, the sump I currently have requires 13.5 amps to run. So I imagine over 20amp at start.

I couldn't tell from pictures if the 120/220 toggle switch is there. And if it is, is it wired the same way as to deliver all available power to a single 120v outlet?

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this subject.

[Elda]

Richdel,

If you are planning to use a generator as a house backup, doesn't it need to have three phase 220V or something? I'm not sure all generators are able to provide 220V that can replace the normal input to a house through a transfer box or that can even be split into two 110V circuits.

At least I have heard some smarter people than I complain about this.

Make sure you get a generator that will do the job you want, otherwise it will just be a waist of money.

Now I'm going to study what allpraisebob did and see if I can follow it.

[allpraisebob]

scottnjenrv wrote:
to Mr Wizzard, Professor95, or other electrical gurus,

I completed the rewire of my Power Pro 3500 today.
...
Now for the not-so-good news. Neither of my protection devices seems to work. I have two. First the mainline CB in the genset...

Leave the BROWN and BLUE wires that come from the generator head connected to the circuit breaker then parallel the RED wire with the BROWN wire at the plug(s) and the BLUE wire with the added on WHITE wire!!!. This is very important, hence the italics - the WHITE wire is bonded to the RED wire inside the wiring harness coming out of the back of the generator head. This connection needs to be broken, and the WHITE wire extended all the way to the front panel so it can be paralleled with the BLUE one.

My second protection device is a GFI. This is in line with my power cord. I did a test at my garage where I ran the space heater with the generator and grounded the hot lead to my house water pipe. The GFI did not trip. I also grounded the genset to the water pipe. I checked the voltage between the green wire and the hot lead and found about 60v as expected. When I grounded this 60v point the GFI didn't trip and the voltmeter on the genset didn't budge - 115v solid. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?

I did NOT notice when I opened the generator head up, but I imagine that the yellow/green wire is simply a chassis ground and therefore not "bonded" to the RED/WHITE "neutral". Connecting the BLUE wire side of the generator windings to the YELLOW/GREEN wire, or the chassis, would then provide the additonal return path for ground fault current just like in your service entrance. GFI's work by detecting an imbalance in current between the HOT and NEUTRAL wires (they don't actually need to be grounded to work, in other words!), but if neutral isn't connected to ground at any point then fault current can not flow between hot and ground either. This is not such a big deal, though, because without a return path to follow, the current from the generator can't shock you anyway! 😉

[allpraisebob]

Well, folks, I performed surgery on my PP3500 today to allow switching between routing the full output of the generator to 120V loads or the default mode where the full output is only available for 240V loads and the operation was a success. Here's a picture of the wiring mod, annotated for your viewing pleasure:



Note that I squeezed the DPDT toggle switch in the triangular area between the two receptacles but even still I had to grind down the bolt on the 120V receptacle to allow enough threads to engage on the toggle switch's mounting nut! If you wire the switch up exactly as I did then the direction the lever points will indicate which mode the generator is in: pointing at the twistlock receptacle, the generator will be in normal mode (240V and 120V available); pointing at the 120V receptacle, it will be in full power at 120V mode. <-edited here for clarity - thanks cecilpwv.

Refer back to the schematic on PAGE 90 of this thread for what actually has to be done. BTW, it too has been edited for clarity. 😉

In case you are a late arrival to this thread, or just plain missed missed it, my PP3500 wiring mod uses a DPDT switch to either put the two generator windings in parallel, delivering 120V at 29A or in series, delivering 240V at 14.5A and 120V at 14.5A (but not at the same time!) A couple of nice things about this mod are that the circuit breaker still protects the generator windings in either mode and the voltmeter now indicates 120V when the windings are in parallel. All in all, this mod greatly improves the versatility of this already nice little generator, if I do say so myself 🙂 and at a cost of $6 for the DPDT switch (available from Home Depot, Radio Shack, et al.) and a little bit of 14AWG stranded wire it is well worth it!

[tvantuyl]

scottnjenrv wrote:
to Mr Wizzard, Professor95, or other electrical gurus,

I completed the rewire of my Power Pro 3500 today. First the good news. It works great. I wired for 120v only - I have no 240v application. It runs my air (15K BTU, in 30 foot Sunnybrook, 90 degrees outside, 100 inside at test start, voltage drop to 110 volts after 1 hour test run). All functionality ok.

Now for the not-so-good news. Neither of my protection devices seems to work. I have two. First the mainline CB in the genset. I used the CB that came with the unit but wired the two sides in parallel (assuming that they were two ~13a breakers). I loaded it down in my garage with at least 30a - the voltage dropped to 95v but the CB never tripped. (I connected a coffee maker at 10+ amps, a space heater at 10+ amps, and a vacuum cleaner at 12+ amps. The vacuum cleaner was load 1 and the coffee maker load 2. When I turned on the resistive heater is really loaded down, fell to about 95v but kept going.) Anyone have any suggestions as to what CB I should get for a replacement?

My second protection device is a GFI. This is in line with my power cord. I did a test at my garage where I ran the space heater with the generator and grounded the hot lead to my house water pipe. The GFI did not trip. I also grounded the genset to the water pipe. I checked the voltage between the green wire and the hot lead and found about 60v as expected. When I grounded this 60v point the GFI didn't trip and the voltmeter on the genset didn't budge - 115v solid. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?

I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks again for any help you can offer.

Scott,

Scottnjenrv:

Did you have the genset connected to an earth ground that would be common with the cold water pipe you used as a GFI test? I suspect the fault path the genset would see was incomplete.
If the genset is not grounded to an earth ground, then the GFI cannot see the ground return "fault" that it is designed to protect from.
Let me know if that helps the GFI work correctly to protect the user.
Ted

[NM_Desert_Rat]

scottnjenrv,

I tried to find a data sheet on the Cochirk (sp) breaker without luck. PowerPro told me over the phone that it is a 13A breaker, I'm sure that I have drawn more than that without it tripping.

Out of curiosity, whose wiring mod did you use, MrWizard's or allpraisebob's?

Thanks

Desert

[Richdel]

Elda wrote:
whs9841,

I bought the ELM-3600-SS Storm Series, which I suspect is virtually the same as the 3500. Anyway, the primary reason I picked it over the ELM-3000 was having wheels and handles to make it easy to move. I invariably end up moving things by myself.

So far it has worked fine. I don't know if that helps you decide anything, but that is my two cents worth.

I have been following this thread for all 90+ pages and almost 1 month, and I am ready to pull the trigger on the ELIM3000. But I am still uncertain if I should go with the ELIM3600SS. I will be using my gen as the primary backup for my house (and sump pump). The ELIM3000 is great since all amps can be redirected to one 120v outlet. My sump is very inefficient (13.5 running amps!!!). Anyway, the ELIM3600 being almost 10lbs lighter, and 2db quieter, with wheels for only a $100 jump has me 2nd guessing the ELIM3000 as my choice.

My only question is can all amps be sent to 1-120v outlet similar to the ELIM3000? If yes, I may purchase an ELIM3600SS tomorrow. If no, then I purchase the ELIM3000 tomorrow.

Also, after reading about all the UPS (shipping) woes, has anyone who has purchased an ELIM3000 from the ebay seller (Jae's) used any other shipping option? Is there any other shipping option available from this seller? Good things or bad things about the seller?

Too many questions. Just can't see good things happening if my UPS guy has to deliver a 100 pount package at my house! Bad things will happen.

Thanks to all for the time you spent putting this thread together and all the testing you have done. I appreciate it greatly!

[Elda]

whs9841,

I bought the ELM-3600-SS Storm Series, which I suspect is virtually the same as the 3500. Anyway, the primary reason I picked it over the ELM-3000 was having wheels and handles to make it easy to move. I invariably end up moving things by myself.

So far it has worked fine. I don't know if that helps you decide anything, but that is my two cents worth.

[scottnjenrv]

to Mr Wizzard, Professor95, or other electrical gurus,

I completed the rewire of my Power Pro 3500 today. First the good news. It works great. I wired for 120v only - I have no 240v application. It runs my air (15K BTU, in 30 foot Sunnybrook, 90 degrees outside, 100 inside at test start, voltage drop to 110 volts after 1 hour test run). All functionality ok.

Now for the not-so-good news. Neither of my protection devices seems to work. I have two. First the mainline CB in the genset. I used the CB that came with the unit but wired the two sides in parallel (assuming that they were two ~13a breakers). I loaded it down in my garage with at least 30a - the voltage dropped to 95v but the CB never tripped. (I connected a coffee maker at 10+ amps, a space heater at 10+ amps, and a vacuum cleaner at 12+ amps. The vacuum cleaner was load 1 and the coffee maker load 2. When I turned on the resistive heater is really loaded down, fell to about 95v but kept going.) Anyone have any suggestions as to what CB I should get for a replacement?

My second protection device is a GFI. This is in line with my power cord. I did a test at my garage where I ran the space heater with the generator and grounded the hot lead to my house water pipe. The GFI did not trip. I also grounded the genset to the water pipe. I checked the voltage between the green wire and the hot lead and found about 60v as expected. When I grounded this 60v point the GFI didn't trip and the voltmeter on the genset didn't budge - 115v solid. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?

I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks again for any help you can offer.

Scott,

[MAC-a-roni]

allpraisebob wrote:
I edited my original post to reflect your suggested clarification as it was a good one.

Thanks!

allpraisebob wrote:
I do apologize for assuming that you did not know about 240V phasing, but there was no indication in your post that you knew otherwise!

NP! I don't like tooting my own horn.:)

allpraisebob wrote:
But that's what makes forums like this one so valuable - I can make a mistake, you can call me on it, and EVERYONE is wiser

Yup!:B

[allpraisebob]

pup wrote:
Do you have a schematic that includes the breaker and the 120V outlet? Could you also lable the yellow wires in the picture you took to corespond on the schematic?

The "yellow" wires are for grounding and are not changed.

The 120V outlet IS shown in the schematic - it's labeled NEMA 5-20.

The breaker is not shown in the schematic, true, but it is shown in the picture of the front panel backside where to pick up the Brown and Blue wires to preserve the circuit breaker function. I'll edit the schematic anyway, though.

Also, where do you plan to mount the DPDT switch?

That is the BIG problem, isn't it! I haven't yet decided where to stick the durn thing as it is big, clunky and has exposed terminals that will be a pain to seal if I can't put it where the black plastic cover goes. I don't think I'll be able to do so, but I'm going to give it the ol' college try.

[allpraisebob]

MAC-a-roni wrote:
Actually, allpraisebob, it is known to me that it does not matter which phase goes where with respect to neutral. I thought the mismatch between your writeup and the photo would raise questions from other readers whose forte may not be electricity/electronics. Electricity is a dangerous force to reckon with and can have deadly consequences if taken lightly. Wouldn't you agree that a courtesy once over is always a good idea?

BTW, I am an Electrical Engineer, and work with electronics on a daily basis supporting the finest Naval aircraft in the world.:):)

I edited my original post to reflect your suggested clarification as it was a good one.

I do apologize for assuming that you did not know about 240V phasing, but there was no indication in your post that you knew otherwise!

But that's what makes forums like this one so valuable - I can make a mistake, you can call me on it, and EVERYONE is wiser 😉

[allpraisebob]

mjp750 wrote:
okay, as a full fledged newbie, the questions I have are:

1)does this stay as 120v, just doubling the available wattage and amps, or does this make it 240v served through a 120v plug? I'm betting (hoping) it's the former.

It does not double the wattage - that's not possible without doubling the engine horsepower, the area of the wire and amount of iron in the generator, etc. What is really going on here is that this 3000W generator is only good for 1500W at its 120V outlet in its default configuration. That is to say, one of the two windings goes unused for 120V loads unless the wiring mod is done.

2) does this mean that both circuit breakers are being used to regulate the flow? Again, I'm betting (hoping) that is the case.

Yes. The picture of the backside of the front panel shows where to pick up the Blue and Brown wires to preserve the circuit breaker protection. Technically, during 120V operation there are breakers in series with both the "Hot" and the "Neutral" lines, which is a code violation in electrical wiring, but on a generator where there is no intrinsic "ground" it is not a problem - an asset, actually, if the generator frame is bonded to earth ground.

[MAC-a-roni]

Actually, allpraisebob, it is known to me that it does not matter which phase goes where with respect to neutral. I thought the mismatch between your writeup and the photo would raise questions from other readers whose forte may not be electricity/electronics. Electricity is a dangerous force to reckon with and can have deadly consequences if taken lightly. Wouldn't you agree that a courtesy once over is always a good idea?

BTW, I am an Electrical Engineer, and work with electronics on a daily basis supporting the finest Naval aircraft in the world.:):)