3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Hawklover]

Thanks to all that replied to my post about the Costco Nikota, Professor, BlackMax, Toprudder, et al. And to Sonic1954....

Sonic1954 wrote:
Does the manual give a rating on the noise level?

Yes, the box says 74 DB's, I think in practice it's not quite that high, probably in the high 60's like most of the Honda clones are, still, you know it's running for sure, not quite as loud as my Honda mower, but close!
Cheers!
Russ

[mrfixit454]

Hello Professor,
I want to thank you again for your guided support in this HUGE forum. The e-start was one feature I liked. If I can get it for that price, I might do so and post results later.

I sent ELIM some questions, They responded in about an hour. My questions were:
1. Is full wattage available to one outlet in either voltage ?
2. Who makes the motor?
3. Does the battery get charged automatically or do you need to tap into the DC socket?

Here is what I got from ELIM:
--------------------------------------------------
thank you for you interest in our product
this generator the rate power is 2.8Kw

No ,you can not get all 3000 watts only the peak power(Max) can reach 3000watts

this generator is complete made in china

the 12v is DC outlet
-------------------------------------------------

I resent my questions again to be more specific.
They are as follows:
Thankyou but I think you misunderstood me. can I get the 2.8kw in 110 volt mode from one outlet??
since this is an electric start, does the battery get charged when you run the generator?
Does it come with a manual with wiring diagram.
We'll see what they say.
EDIT.. They responded as I typed this (failrly quickly). here is the second one
--------------------------------------
DEAR CUSTOMER:
I am sorry for the first time i gave your answer, I ask our engineer they told me all your question the answer are YES,

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Since this is a big YES with little detail and with the broken english, I worry a little but I think it is worth a chance for the $$$

I saw the single breaker too. I mainly want this for backup power in my home for emergencies. I most likely will not use it in my RV but would like the option to do so.
I'll keep you posted.
Ramon

[professor95]

Did you happen to see the link to the sellers main site??
A division of ELIM International?

Ah so..... Jay's Sensitive E-Mail IS ELIM International. Interesting. I also now know why it has a key switch - it is electric start (but I bet you need to supply the battery). Maybe not a bad deal for the price afterall.

I still think it is a JD unit, not a Luntop. Actually, I like that.

$258 + shipping for electric start.... Hummmm.......

Let's just hope it is a unit that will provide full wattage to a single 120 outlet.

Let us know what you end up with, provided you buy it.

[BlackMax]

Hawklover,
I think you made a good choice in generators. No muss, no fuss. I had no indication of failing to run everthing on my 5'er. Conversion to propane went well. Internals look like good quality. Can't beat the price or Costco support.

[mrfixit454]

Thanks Professor, I forgot to mention that the last one went for $258 w/ the $90 shipping. The shipping is kind of steep but I might just suck it up. This price is still a little more than my local outlets for other brands but it has the features I am looking for.

I have similar concerns about where power is routed. There are similar units to this ELIM within a 70 mile radius to me but I can't get any response to emails I have sent them with regards to certain questions. I am going to try to email ELIM USA to see if they can answer a few questions. If I can't get any repsonse from them, I might just get the champion here locally.

Did you happen to see the link to the sellers main site??
A division of ELIM International?

Thanks
Ramon

[toprudder]

Hawklover wrote:
Like I said, electrical is not my strong point, so maybe I'm missing something here and heading for disaster, but it seemed to work fine. I'd love for someone to take a look at the pics and specs and let me know what they think. Sorry for writing a book, it's my first post and I didn't know where to stop!
TIA,
Russ

It does look like it is switchable between 120 and 240. The only question I have is about the schematic, it appears that when it is in 240v mode, there is no neutral on the 240v outlet. If that is the case, it would be easy to correct by running a wire from the brown jumper in the schematic to the neutral pin on the connector.

If you want to connect the genset through a transfer switch into your house, you would need the neutral connected.

[professor95]

I'd love for someone to take a look at the pics and specs and let me know what they think.

Well, the engine shroud has the JD label. The forum history with this particular Chinese manufacturer has been good (they built the original ELM3000). You can also get full current out of a single outlet at 120 volts. You also have 220 available if needed for home backup power. That's also good. Interesting to see the "Nikota" label on a JD generator - I did not know that is who was building the second generation Nikota.

Right off hand, I'd say you made a good choice with the purchase.

[Sonic1954]

Does the manual give a rating on the noise level?

Looks like you did get a unit that is switchable between all the power going to the 110 outlet or having it go to the 220 plug. That is a good thing.:)

[Hawklover]

Hi, I'm a Newbie, bought my 1st TT last month and have been lurking on the Forum since, trying to educate myself....having fun learning!
After boondocking a few times I got interested in Gennys and have been wading thru this thread the last few days.
Thanks to the Professor and all those who contributed, electronics is not one of my strong points, but I think I got the gist of what to look for in the Chinese gensets, and am hoping for some confirmation.
I gathered that the "later" model Nikotas from Costco might be "plug-n-play" deals, and since I really didn't want to rewire anything, when I saw this one at the local store and read the specs, I went for it. I figured Costco has a really liberal return policy so if it didn't work out, I'd return it, no harm done.
Here is the specs and some pics (very rudimentary manual, but I'm posting what seems the relevant stuff)









The pics are pretty self-explanatory...supposed to be a 120v 25amp unit, the duplex receptacles seem to be bridged, but someone better than I should be able to read the schematic and look at the wiring to confirm?
My way of testing it's worthiness was to borrow a voltage tester, and then fire the Nikota up (it started 1st pull by the way....and NOT quiet, but pretty smooth) then I plugged in the Trailer via a 3-prong adapter to one of the duplex recepts, turned the fridge to propane and switched on the 13500 BTU AC. Nary a peep from the Gen, and AC cranked right up. Tested the voltage at an outlet, 120.2. So, I took the fridge off propane, still no protest, outlet dropped to 119. Did I dare....yes, I did, turned on the Microwave. Now the Nikota hiccupped a little, but settled down and kept on trucking. Voltage dropped to 117.2 and stayed there.
I took pity on it then and unhooked it, ran it no load for the rest of the tank to break it in.
Like I said, electrical is not my strong point, so maybe I'm missing something here and heading for disaster, but it seemed to work fine. I'd love for someone to take a look at the pics and specs and let me know what they think. Sorry for writing a book, it's my first post and I didn't know where to stop!
TIA,
Russ

[mrfixit454]

Looking for comments good or bad on this unit. I am 90% sure I might purchase it depending on what others say.
Thanks in advance
Ramon

Elim Storm series

[professor95]

Professor,

I noticed that you used a different voltage scale to measure the line AC from your house. The scope display said "1:5v" where the others said "1:1v". Did you not use the 9V isolation transformer in the house? Just curious.

Well, thats an interesting observation. Actually, I never noticed it. The scope I was using is a digital unit and I had it set to "autorange". The scope selected what it wanted to...... not me.

But to answer the other question, yes I used the same isolation transformer for both measurments.

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
Some answers to questions about the output waveforms of these Chinese gensets were posted on one of my Comcast Web Sites many months back. (What? You have not read every post to know this!)

If you want to see them click
here

Once on the site, click on "photos"

Professor,

I noticed that you used a different voltage scale to measure the line AC from your house. The scope display said "1:5v" where the others said "1:1v". Did you not use the 9V isolation transformer in the house? Just curious.

[professor95]

to me they look exactly the spikes produced by a diode going into 'avalanche mode'

That's one theory, and indeed may be the correct one. I have not seen a complete technical schematic for the generator head on any of these units nor have I decided to dissect mine for examination. Thus, I can also only present a "theory".

All of the Chinese generators discussed on this forum that I have encounter use a capacitor as a voltage regulator. The capacitor is part of the excitation coil circuit. It acts as the predominate current source in the circuit until it is fully charged. Once fully charged, current in the excitation coils will drop, thus limiting output voltage. This is a cheap and somewhat effective method. But, it is not the "cleanest" method. I believe the "spikes" may also be attributed to this type of voltage regulation.

[MrWizard]

feistycapn wrote:

professor95 wrote:
Some answers to questions about the output waveforms of these Chinese gensets were posted on one of my Comcast Web Sites many months back. (What? You have not read every post to know this!)

If you want to see them click
here

Once on the site, click on "photos"

I meant to ask (perhaps you already answered?) what you thought the reason was for the transient spikes on the high and low points were due to? These look like commutation spikes but there are no brushes or devices in the circuits that have been described that I can attribute this to. But Hey, I'm only a Mechanical Engineer 🙂

I believe I gave the proffesor the answer to that one

to me they look exactly the spikes produced by a diode going into 'avalanche mode'

anyway it turns out that these 'brushless' generators without a voltage regulator card, use diodes to produce the rectified / DC voltage needed for the field,

the spiikes are more 'pronouced/visible', under a NO load condition, which i think was the situation when he made the scope tests

I saw a picture of the end of an armature ( in a generator post somewhere ) that showed the diodes, and may have even called attention to them..

[feistycapn]

professor95 wrote:
Some answers to questions about the output waveforms of these Chinese gensets were posted on one of my Comcast Web Sites many months back. (What? You have not read every post to know this!)

If you want to see them click
here

Once on the site, click on "photos"

I meant to ask (perhaps you already answered?) what you thought the reason was for the transient spikes on the high and low points were due to? These look like commutation spikes but there are no brushes or devices in the circuits that have been described that I can attribute this to. But Hey, I'm only a Mechanical Engineer 🙂