3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[stockrex]

Professor, thanks a bunch for the instructions for the manual switch,

I found a source for the Hour Meters and other digital meters.

http://www.enmco.com/home.shtml

anyone in Grand Rapids, MI area or Milwaukee (work in Milwaukee at St Lukes) wanting to a group buy? I really dont need 3 hour meter.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Toprudder - and any other "Devil's Advocates" out there -
A little bit of "advocating" generates lots of interesting
reading (& good info) for the rest of us!
JC

[professor95]

toprudder wrote:
Please forgive me, I tend to play the devil's advocate. It comes from my job experience.

You know, if no one ever challenged a concept, theory or belief we would still be walking around in animal skins carrying clubs.

Paradigms are dangerous. I don't see you as a "devil's advocate" in your questioning and rationalizing statements made on this forum.

Keep thinking outside the perimeter of the box!

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
While the manual transfer switch that I showed may not be perfect, it is an inexpensive approach that allows a greater degree of safety. The break before make periods were timed when I first built the switch and looked good on an oscilloscope.

I suspected it would be ok, but its good to know that it was tested.

As far as the transfer switch breakers tripping, they should not trip. The switch is not intended to be an overcurrent protection device. Overcurrent protection must come from a breaker on the feeder side of each source.

Ahh, ok, I did not think about that. So, you would probably want to size the transfer breakers a little larger than the feeder breaker.

I have seen one real-world instance where the subpanel breaker tripped before the feeder. It was when a high resistance connection on the subpanel breaker caused the thermal protection to trip the breaker. Not normal, but still real-world.

Please forgive me, I tend to play the devil's advocate. 🙂 It comes from my job experience.

[professor95]

toprudder wrote:
The only problem I can possibly think of, with the setup in the pictures, is that you need to make sure that this is a "break before make" arrangement. Since most of the breakers that I have seen take very little movement to trip them off, and a lot of movement to get them on again, your setup is probably ok.

I have seen a similar arrangement as yours, except the "rocker" could not move unless both breakers were off. The procedure to change over would be to make sure both breakers were off, then move the rocker so the desired breaker could be turned on, then turn on the desired breaker. The rocker is not physically connected to either breaker, it simply blocks at least one of the breakers from being turned on.

One glitch I see with your setup -- if the breaker in use trips, the only way to reset it is to toggle both breakers, which is really not a big deal unless you are testing your generator while you still have utility power.

I love it when someone not only takes the time to read a posting like the one referenced, but goes further and attempts to analyze the circuit and develop questions pertaining to the inferred operation!

I occasionally tell my students: "Just because it may seem like I know what I am talking about, doesn't always mean I do".

While the manual transfer switch that I showed may not be perfect, it is an inexpensive approach that allows a greater degree of safety. The break before make periods were timed when I first built the switch and looked good on an oscilloscope.

As far as the transfer switch breakers tripping, they should not trip. The switch is not intended to be an overcurrent protection device. Overcurrent protection must come from a breaker on the feeder side of each source. The breakers used in the switch may exceed the expected current as long as the feeder breakers are of the proper size. Actually, small transfer switches can be made from 3-way light switches (travelers to sources, pivot to load) but they are generally rated for a max of 20 amps. Breakers are more durable and will handle significant surge currents.

Of course, you could just plunk down $200 or more for one that is made up and in a box. The small one pictured was built for under $25.00 and would work great on an RV.

What does bother me about such projects is that the actual quality and safety of the device is totally dependent upon the individual building it. Short cuts or improper set-up could render the device unsafe. I do hold a master electrician license, among other certifications and degrees, and feel my work is compliant. I cannot promise yours will be.

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
Manual transfer switches can be made from virtually any code approved two-space breaker box. In order for them to be "code compliant" and safe it is necessary to configure the two switching breakers so that only one can be turned on at a time.

The only problem I can possibly think of, with the setup in the pictures, is that you need to make sure that this is a "break before make" arrangement. Since most of the breakers that I have seen take very little movement to trip them off, and a lot of movement to get them on again, your setup is probably ok.

I have seen a similar arrangement as yours, except the "rocker" could not move unless both breakers were off. The procedure to change over would be to make sure both breakers were off, then move the rocker so the desired breaker could be turned on, then turn on the desired breaker. The rocker is not physically connected to either breaker, it simply blocks at least one of the breakers from being turned on.

One glitch I see with your setup -- if the breaker in use trips, the only way to reset it is to toggle both breakers, which is really not a big deal unless you are testing your generator while you still have utility power.

[klutchdust]

Just picked up my champion at Kragen and ran it for a while, not real noisy. We go out in the desert where you can run what you brung and no one would hear it anyway.I don't go to campgrounds and if i did I would use battery power anyway.

[Horizon170]

Professor95----A couple of questions.

1) My Nephew has a 1962 Lincoln welder with a 120V output.
How can he determine if the output is AC or DC?

2) My F250 Ford Pickup diesel has a 150-165 Amp (not sure) alternator. It has two stock batteries (larger than GP27) and I'm not sure of the CCA. I want to install a 3000W inverter under the hood for use in the field to power power saws, drills, etc in an emergency.
I know to locate inverters as close to the batteries as possible and to use large gauge cables. Is this fesible as I can get a 3000W inverter at Pep Boy'e reasonable.
Thanks, Marvin

PS, Is there an after market (reasonably priced) hour meter that I can wire into my Honda 2000. Right now I have an electric clock (analog) hooked into the generator side of my transfer switch. This only works in 12 hour multiples.

[RCThunder]

I am sorry I know this has been covered but I am having a hard time finding it. I just got a Power Pro 3500 from Pep Boys. I thought the 30 amp locking plug would be 30 amps but it is not. It appears it is on one of the 2 13amp breakers.

Is there an easy way to fix this? Thanks a lot. I should have got the Champion but in FL there are no stores and I needed this weekend....

Rookie question I know 🙂

[professor95]

stockrex wrote:

http://www.bestconverter.com/Transfer-Relays_c_53-1.html

can I get one of these auto tfr switches to be used with the generator and my house/rv electric box?

Professor, could you pls share the steps to make a manual switch

Manual transfer switches can be made from virtually any code approved two-space breaker box. In order for them to be "code compliant" and safe it is necessary to configure the two switching breakers so that only one can be turned on at a time. I used some nuts and bolts along with several pieces of scrap metal to make my transfer switches. The big one is for 220 volts, the smaller for 120 volts. When making this type of transfer switch you backfeed the breakers from the power sources. By backfeeding, I mean you bring power into the breaker at the screw you would normally uses as the wiring output. The bus bar then becomes the common hot terminal. In an RV the OEM power cord would attach the black wire to the bus, the white wire to the neutral and the green to a grounding block that is isolated from neutral. Identical wires from the generator and shore power would go to the white and green terminals. The generator would feed one breaker via a hot lead, the shore line would feed the other via the black wire.

These photos should (hopefully) show the detail.

[raydavey]

Thanks Professor. The noise is definitely mechanical and seems centered around the OHV cover and/or the recoil area. I wonder if I should call Champion for a replacement option? I'm not sure I want to take it apart right out of the box. Did put the spark arrestor in and the exaust is surprisingly quiet.

[professor95]

raydavey wrote:
First time posting to RV.NET... Been reading the threads about the gensets here in Tech Issues. Went out and bought the Champion 46540 this AM. Dumped in the oil & gas and fired it up. Ran it for 10 minutes before putting a light load on it (5 Amp 1 hp Shop Vac). It burped every time I turned the Vac on then smoothed out. Ran for 30 minutes to test. OK.

Questions for couple of the veterans on this board. It sure seemed noisy, will it quiet down after a break in period? I've owned several RVs with gensets in the belly somewhere - the noise from this portable seems significantly louder. I plan to use it for home back-up and for a future TT. Also, where might I buy a wheel kit for this unit?

It will not quite down after the break in period. If you put the spark arrestor in the muffler you will drop the exhaust noise another hair.

If the noise is "mechanical" rather than exhaust, you might want to check the plastic fan attached to the flywheel under the recoil starter. There have been some reports of this piece deflecting and rattling against the shroud. The fix seems to be putting a bead of RTV on the flywheel and then squeezing down the fan. You will need a fat bead as there is a gap that needs to be filled. Let it sit at least 24 hours before you crank it up so the RTV can set. If this doesn't reduce the noise, you have lost nothing other than time and a $3.00 tube of RTV.

You can make the exhaust a little quiter by brazing or welding a 3/4" to 1/2" threaded galvanized pipe female reducer to the end of the muffler. You then use a threaded 2" nipple and a 90 degree ell to point the exhaust down to the ground. Add an extension to the ell that will leave you with about 1-1/2" above the ground. Set the generator on dirt or grass and virtually all exhaust noise will be gone.

Mechanical noise can be damped by sound absorbing objects placed in front of or close to the starter side. Keep them about 6-8" away so you maintain good air movement. Poly pannels or plywood with carpet glued on work well.

The 67 dB rating of virtually all of the Chinese imports is by no means silent power. But, compared to the n...

[professor95]

berniealvy wrote:
The Champion C46535 is out of stock but the C46540 is in stock for $329 and it has the RV 30amp plug already on it. I believe it is the same except it says it has 4000 surge watts and the 46535 has 4450. Would you get this one instead of the 46535? I would not have to buy any adapters so I think the $30 difference would make up for that. Does anyone know where you can buy one close to Kentucky so you dont have to pay the $100 shipping cost? I would like to pick it up at the warehouse.

The C46540 is the prefered unit for a 30 amp TT. It has a voltage selector switch and the RV TT outlet.

The C46535 does not have a voltage selector switch and requires changing the position of 3 wires inside the end cap of the generator to obtain full amperage from a single duplex outlet. You will need an adapter to plug in your 30 amp TT outlet.

Forget the different surge ratings given for each model. Both will deliver the same power when all is said and done. The C46535 came with a 20 amp breaker on one winding and a 15 amp on the other winding. This was supposedly why it had a 4450 surge watt rating.

[mcmurphrjk]

Bought my Champion over a year ago. Had maybe 100 hours on it. Had a severe engine failure (no compression). Called tech support and they sent me new engine, for a very reasonable price. Took about an hour to change engine. I am writing to commend Champion Power Equipment for their quick service. They even included a tool for separating the generator from the tapered shaft on the engine. My experience with these people has been very positive, and they seem genuinely interested in,and capable of supporting their product. Kudos

[raydavey]

First time posting to RV.NET... Been reading the threads about the gensets here in Tech Issues. Went out and bought the Champion 46540 this AM. Dumped in the oil & gas and fired it up. Ran it for 10 minutes before putting a light load on it (5 Amp 1 hp Shop Vac). It burped every time I turned the Vac on then smoothed out. Ran for 30 minutes to test. OK.

Questions for couple of the veterans on this board. It sure seemed noisy, will it quiet down after a break in period? I've owned several RVs with gensets in the belly somewhere - the noise from this portable seems significantly louder. I plan to use it for home back-up and for a future TT. Also, where might I buy a wheel kit for this unit?

Excellent posts on this topic - very helpful!