3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[COnative]

I can't help with the well questions, but was finally able to test the champion at 6000 ft with AC, micro, lights and tunes. My AC unit is a 13.5k Dometic and I believe the micro is 700watt. Turned on fan motor and let it run like most have suggested. Turned it to low, adjusted thermostat and compressor engaged, champion didn't flinch. Turned on micro and minimal flinch was heard. Proceeded with 5 lights and the stereo and it ran very nicely. Kept trying micro a few more times and had no problems. Outside temp was 80. Next test wil be in June at 8000ft. Will let you know results.

[Will_Have_RV_On]

Gentleman & Ladies,

Good afternoon; I very much apprecite and respect the feedback on the 3.5kw Champion for the 1.5hp well punmp. I understand the 3.5kw will run the well pump and nothing else. I offer the following thoughts;
1. We had another power outage last night. I promised my wife i would buy a genertor straight away.
2. My well system has an oversized accumulator / pressure tank and produces ~ 40 gal with the power off. This assumes the power doesn't cut off mid cycle.
3. I was planning to set-up the 3.5kw Champion so that i could manually switch off the lights/fridge/microwave to re-charge / pressurize the well system as needed. I believe this will be practical as our consumption habits are reduced when the power is out. If i needed to do a manuel switch 2x day (for 5 kids in the home) this would be acceptable.

I would appreciate any feedback on this anticipated set-up/procedure. It would also help to understand the fuel consumption / run time on the 3.5kw Champion or the 5kw model sugested. I previously borrowed my Uncle's Honda 2000 invertor camping generator. It did the lights/fridge/microwave/wood stove blower very well. However it will not get us well water with our current pump/set-up. I was impressed with the low noise and minimal fuel consumption.

My brother-in-law has a 15kw Generac whole house set-up. He says it burns ~ 100 gal/day (propane). I would not be suprised if he starts turning it off at times during outages. I'm not sold on bigger is better when it comes to generators, but i am willing to listen and do appreciate the feedback.

Thanks Again.

[racefan1965]

I've read this entire thread over the last couple weeks and learned enough to know to buy a RV ready Champion. I plan on using it this June at Infinion Raceway (handicapped section of the 50acre lot) as a replacement for my 8 year old noisy coleman powermate 1850. I've upgraded from a bare bones 1989 coleman tent trailer to a 1984 24foot Alpenlite 5er with all appliances working. It's going to be heaven this year when it's 90degrees outside and 75degrees inside! I want to thank everyone on here for all the great research and ideas that enabled me to make a educated decision on which gen set to purchase. The money I saved will now hopefully go towards a phoenix race this fall.
Thank you,
Rick

[Oldfordman]

MrWizard wrote:
bobandcat, maybe you are correct, but that seems extreme to me, I'm sure there are some other members who have done did this and posted about it, i'm sure i read that ran their well pumps from the champion and other generators, it seems to me that champion is erring on the side of caution, by telling the buyer the pump uses 2800 watts they are ensuring that the buyer doesn't try to run a well pump with the 1500 watt or other small genny, even it the pump motor was that in-effiecent the 3500 watt generator should carry it.

i agree in many cases bigger is better, and the other champion models have the same quality and same CS support as the RV ready, and it is NOT going to hurt to have a bigger generator than a person thinks that he might need, especially for stationary emergency use.

Whether or not the 3500/4000 watt generator starts and runs the pump is only part of the story. In the case of a power Outage what about a few lights, the TV, a microwave, or even the furnace.

I live in an area that has numerous power outages due to our love of trees and the numerous prohibitions on cutting/pruning them. A breeze can put trees through the lines and three or four day outages are not unheard of for some areas around me. Most houses that have a submersible pump use a 7KW genset to not only handle the startup current of the pump but also provide for BASIC comforts of the house while the temp outside can be in the teens. A 3500W generator MAY give you water but that's about it.


Some info on motor starting currents:
"The current drawn by a motor during across the line starting is often specified on the motor nameplate specifications as locked rotor amps (LRA). This current is typically five to six times the full load amps (FLA) of the motor, and as high as ten times FLA for high efficiency motors. This inrush current lasts only until the motor shaft has reached its rated speed, so it is typically of very short duration, perhaps less than one second. For example, the typical FLA for a 230 volt,10 HP three-phase motor is 29A and the starting current approximately 150A. When there is a large mass attached to or driven by the rotor, the motor will take longer to reach its rated RPM, thus the starting current will be longer in duration and put a larger burden on the electrical system.

If the electrical system supplying these starting currents does not have enough ampacity, the inrush current will cause a voltage drop on the utility line. "

The inrush current may last only a second or so with a Utility Power supply but a limited capacity generator may not be able to get the motor up to speed quick enough so this time may be prolonged. It may last long enough to trip the circuit breakers.

[bobandcat]

MrWizard,
I agree that Champion is erring on the very conservative side with their estimate. Since 'Will Have RV One Day' is going to use the generator for house back-up, he would be better off with a larger generator.
I just know that on a hot day in Arizona, my 3.5kw Champion won't start my microwave while my 15k AC is running. It will run both in cooler weather.

[ddav15]

You can put a capacitor on your pump motor for a few bucks then it should start up with a Champion RV generator.

[MrWizard]

bobandcat, maybe you are correct, but that seems extreme to me, I'm sure there are some other members who have done did this and posted about it, i'm sure i read that ran their well pumps from the champion and other generators, it seems to me that champion is erring on the side of caution, by telling the buyer the pump uses 2800 watts they are ensuring that the buyer doesn't try to run a well pump with the 1500 watt or other small genny, even it the pump motor was that in-effiecent the 3500 watt generator should carry it.

i agree in many cases bigger is better, and the other champion models have the same quality and same CS support as the RV ready, and it is NOT going to hurt to have a bigger generator than a person thinks that he might need, especially for stationary emergency use.

[bobandcat]

Champion's owners manual estimates the runnng wattage of a 1.5 H.P. submersible pump at 2800 watts. Pretty low efficiency! They further state that the starting load could be as much as 3 times the running wattage.

My concern for this pump is the starting load which would probably be at least 4600-5600 watts (or more). The RV ready Champion or any other similarly sized (3-3.5kw) genset probably won't start this motor.

[MrWizard]

unless my memory & math are confused, 1hp=745 watts

a 1.5 hp =1117.5 watts , thats the max running power, the 20amp breaker is the max surge for the motor, LRA locked rotor amps.

the champion should have no problem with the pump under normal conditions,

however you might encounter problems If you are running things like an A/C unit or electric heater or hair dryer while running the water pump, NOT from the running load but from the start load, your washing machine AND fridge are also going to have induction motors ( 120vac ) with startup loads that are twice their run loads

people have a tendency too concentrate on the one major load and forget about the auxiliaries they will also be using , the water pump will only be used intermittently, but the fridge , freezer, furnace lights will be in almost continuous use, and they will be on and running when the pump has to kick in.

many of these portable gensets will give 240 or 120 but not both at the same time, and amny of them do NOT have a neutral connection on the 240 outlet, so they can power a pump or a welder by direct connection, but NOT serve as a 240 back feed for the power panel.

I forget which way the champion 240 is wired, i'll have to check the schematic for the neutral on 240

but if all you want to do is run the pump, and nothing else, the 3500-4000surge RV ready, should do that.

[bobandcat]

Will Have RV One Day wrote:
Gentleman & Ladies;

Many thanks for the great information. I am sold on the Champion and could use some help.
1. Want to use the unit for house back-up as i do not own an RV yet. Am not sure if the unit is sufficient and can not find vendor that will allow return if not.
2. Well pump is biggest draw. The pump is 1.5 hp, 230 volt, 10 gallon per minute and 400' down the well. It is on a 20 amp breaker. The well contractor advises a 8kw for the pump. I do not believe he is correct.

Will the Champion run my well pump?

I have 4 prong 30 amp / 250 volt connector at the panel. Is this compatable with the 30 amp rv ready connector on the Champion? Will i have any grounding issues?

Where can i buy in the Richmond, VA area? The local Home Depot told me the chamion is in the computer system but not sure if it will get to the stores. I am aware of the Parts America cupons, however the delivered damaged posts raise some concern.

Many thanks for the advice!

The pump will most likely require a larger genset. This is based on 2 things. First, The 1.5 HP motor will probably need 3400-4600 watts to start the motor. From my experience with the Champion (or any other 3-3.5 kw genset), it will bog down badly under the 4000 watt starting load. Second, your own circuit breaker tells the story. It is 20 amps at 230v which is 4600 watts. The RV ready Champion only provides 15amps at 230v (3500 watts).

The 4 prong 120/240v plug is not compatable with the 3 prong 120v RV plug. However, the Champion also has a 4 prong 120/240v plug.

I would be looking at the 5000-5500 watt gensets for your application. Champion and others sell this size. If you have PepBoys auto parts stores in your area, they are advertising the 5000 watt unit for about $369.

[Will_Have_RV_On]

Gentleman & Ladies;

Many thanks for the great information. I am sold on the Champion and could use some help.
1. Want to use the unit for house back-up as i do not own an RV yet. Am not sure if the unit is sufficient and can not find vendor that will allow return if not.
2. Well pump is biggest draw. The pump is 1.5 hp, 230 volt, 10 gallon per minute and 400' down the well. It is on a 20 amp breaker. The well contractor advises a 8kw for the pump. I do not believe he is correct.

Will the Champion run my well pump?

I have 4 prong 30 amp / 250 volt connector at the panel. Is this compatable with the 30 amp rv ready connector on the Champion? Will i have any grounding issues?

Where can i buy in the Richmond, VA area? The local Home Depot told me the chamion is in the computer system but not sure if it will get to the stores. I am aware of the Parts America cupons, however the delivered damaged posts raise some concern.

Many thanks for the advice!

[LLeopold]

Wow! I've been getting a number of PM's on some of the details for the project. A couple have been about the receiver hitch that I had welded onto the frame of my fifth-wheel. I explained what I had done, but pictures speak volumes, so I've uploaded some pictures of the hitch and frame. Note that the hitch is under the square bumper that holds the sewer hoses. Here they are:

[Broccoli1]

eightballsidepocket wrote:

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
Eightball - the UST has been on this thread (somewhere) before.
As I recall, the UST brand is good - think it was a replacement
for the Elim? previously carried by Pep Boys (which had problems).

Supposedly Champion does not re-badge. Guess it could
have the same Chinese engine.

Thank you for the info on the UST.

Am I correct in my observations that the UST3500 as sold by Pep Boys is not equipped with the 30 amp receptacle when compared to the Champ 4000 sold through Chucker/Kragen's, Coast and other distributors?

It just looks that way from the website provided by a member a few posts back.

The UST 3500 does not have the 30A RV receptacle AND there are different UST 3500s

noted that one shows only 20a Duplex and then there is a GT model with a 30a twist.

Anyhoo the Champion is only 50 bux more and ready to go:)

Note- I statred reading this thread from the beginning and got to page 100 and then decided to start from the end as I was still stuck in 2005:E

[The_Roamer]

Well I haven't made it up to my trailer, but I did take the gen. to my shop where I have a 1400 watt micro. I plugged it into the gen directly (15amp). It ran fine. Then I used a 25' heavy duty 10/3 extention cord. It ran fine. I'm going up next week. I hope to find out if it's the shore line, the 30amp outlet or something in the trailer wiring itself.

[Wgeorge11]

There is a problem with shipping and handling these units, especially ground shipping and fingerprinting from CA to MN to PA. I originally thought PartsAmerica was doing an overkill with multiple boxes and 10# of additional cardboard packing. They said they have done so since Katrina when a lot of units were damaged in shipment. I had their shipper, UPS, note visible impact damage. For sure, mishandling causes these problems, but I still submit that damage would be reduced by taking the bounce out of engine mounts during shipment, and engineering more clearance within the unit. I'm interested in how many other people have found little plastic pieces from a cracked/broken, out of sight control box.
A bigger problem for me is the fuel leak at the tank junction. I cannot believe I'm so unlucky to have received 3 units (plus a replacement fuel cock from Champion) all with this same problem. I posted a "help needed" query here re this issue a week or so back, but got no response. I've gone from running to dripping to weeping fuel. It's still a problem and I could use all the help available to stop the leak before going up/down in flame.
In spite of frustrations, my age makes patience desirable. It keeps stress and adrenalin levels down. Besides, I love the idea of this little generator and just had to have one too.