โMar-02-2005 06:20 AM
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.
In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.
Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.
What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.
Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.
I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.
Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.
No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.
Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.
Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.
We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.
Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.
Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.
This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......
Randy
For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โcloningโ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โrunningโ display model.
I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:
Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)
The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โSupposedlyโ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.
The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โabove average qualityโ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.
The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.
ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โavailability listingโ.
The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ most likely universally available.
The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โreasonablyโ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โlook alikeโ eng...
โAug-02-2007 05:49 AM
professor95 wrote:
. . .
I know we have had the bonding/grounding discussion before on this forum and agreement seems to evade the group. Even our Northern neighbors have code regulations that require the designated neutral on a genset to be bonded to the frame. I am adamant that this practice is not safe for a portable genset used with an RV (it is OK for connection to a residental power system).
. . .
โAug-02-2007 05:48 AM
fireguy60 wrote:
Just my two cents....
I have been reading this forum for a long time now, a lot of information. I have asked questions, and recieved answers. Thank you to all who post here.
I am not a Champion owner, I had my All-power before I found this forum, but I was able to get some good ideas here and I thought I would post my gen after the modifications.
I fabricated the wheel kit myself, I still am thinking about extending a handle on the end.
One mod I added: The double pole switch to isolate the load without having to manually unplug the cord.
Happy camping everyone!:)[/quote
Nice mod. I see something that is of interest to me, there is discussion ongoing about the flow of air through the genset. The picture post shows more clearly, on your genset,what I can't see on my Champ. The openings in the middle. I'm so new to this genset world. I find each day posts that are so interesting. At my old age it's fun again, learning new stuff. The design of these gensets is unique. I think with a mod. to repossion the muffler, I would be in business. Anyone have ideas that would help my adding a heat barrier between the muffler and the genhead.
Thanks,
Floyd.
โAug-02-2007 04:53 AM
โAug-02-2007 12:18 AM
MrWizard wrote:Why would this be so? The louvered cap is the inlet, so the AVR should see the coolest air as it enters the gen head.
I imagine it can still be a lot cooler outside, provided it doesn't generate significant heat itself.
maybe that is the way it should be, but it is not
no it is not the inlet, it is the exit, remove the cap and place your hand in front of the avr, you can feel hot air blowing out.
the fan is on the other end of the shaft near the motor and like the one on the motor it pulls air in on that end and blows it thru the genny head and out the lovered end
if it is suposed to work the other way somebody designed the blower wrong or is mounting it backwards on the shaft
the AVR is definetly cooler outside than inside the genny head
EDIT: i just went out and stuck my hand under the genny head where it meets the engine, where the fan opening is, it is cooler than the end cap, there is NO warm air blowing out of the front end of the genny head !
โAug-01-2007 11:19 PM
โAug-01-2007 10:37 PM
everymilesamemory wrote:While camping in Yosemite in June there were two built-in generators in Motorhomes nearby that were MUCH louder than my Champion was . . . one of them was on the far side of the loop I was in and was easy to hear. That being said, I am hoping to someday find a good deal on a little used Honda, Yamaha, etc. to use for battery recharging, etc. on trips when I know I won't need the A/C.
I've been trying to read through here to see what anyone says about the noise level of the Champion?
Is it quite like a Honda or Yamaha, or more comparable to a Contractor Generator??
Pat
โAug-01-2007 05:18 PM
hbski wrote:MrWizard wrote:
.....when mounted in the genny head there is hot air blowing on the potted/encased side of the AVR.....
Why would this be so? The louvered cap is the inlet, so the AVR should see the coolest air as it enters the gen head.
I imagine it can still be a lot cooler outside, provided it doesn't generate significant heat itself.
โAug-01-2007 05:10 PM
โAug-01-2007 04:12 PM
Why would this be so? The louvered cap is the inlet, so the AVR should see the coolest air as it enters the gen head.
I imagine it can still be a lot cooler outside, provided it doesn't generate significant heat itself.
โAug-01-2007 03:02 PM
โAug-01-2007 02:53 PM
professor95 wrote:TKMJ wrote:
In my own haste to get the genset up and running (a week after I got it) I started that puppy up (yes I added the oil first) and started using the genset. I did not plug my multi tester into the genset to check it. Shame on me bigtime. I ran my saber saw with no problem to cut out some 1/4 plywood figures. After I was finished with the saw I plugged my motorhome in to get some light going inside to get a little work done. It ran fine. I know not to use the A/C and other devices because of the design of the genset. 15amps max per receptacle. The A/C sucks 12.5amps. I did not want to over tax the genset. The problem occurred when my wife stepped into the motorhome with bare feet. She grabbed the pull up handle at the step and got zapped bigtime. 120 volts from her left hand down to her feet. It knocked her 10 feet as she fell on the driveway. Her hand had minor burns on it from the shock. She also has a minor burn on her right foot bottom. She was locked up on the handle for only a few seconds. I jumped out to help her and also got hit upon my exit. After shutting the genset down I disconnected the genset and plugged my meter into the 120 volt receptacle. Here are my results. hot to neutral 120V. hot to ground zero volts. neutral to ground 120volts. The receptacles were wired backwards. I then plugged the genset back into the coach and tested the frame to an earth ground 120 volts was the reading. I then disconnected the genset and plugged the coach into the house and retested it. Zero volts from the frame to earth ground. The problem is with the genset and not the coach.
Ken,
I finished reading your post about an hour ago. I also viewed your photos. This is my take on the generator based on the info you have given:
There really is not a protected neutral on these gensets like you have in residential power systems. Either side of the winding may be called neutral. The problem is when all of the outlets do not use the same point on the coil winding as the designated neutral and the genset is used to power an appliance (an RV is an appliance).
In the residential wiring world, the silver screw on a duplex outlet should have the white wire and the gold screw the colored one. But, gensets do not always follow residential wiring codes per NEC.
You said you measured at the 120 volt outlet. Did you measure at both outlets to see if the results were the same? Remember, on a split circuit the designated neutral will be common to both outlets (the center tap) but hot will be at different ends of the output coil(s). From the front of the outlet the longer slot should be "neutral", the shorter slot hot and the "D" shaped center opening the ground (actually grounding).
It sounds to me like your generator may have the designated neutral bonded to the frame and one of the two outlets may have the wiring reversed. This could be a potentially dangerous situation. I know we have had the bonding/grounding discussion before on this forum and agreement seems to evade the group. Even our Northern neighbors have code regulations that require the designated neutral on a genset to be bonded to the frame. I am adamant that this practice is not safe for a portable genset used with an RV (it is OK for connection to a residental power system). The neutral should not be bonded to a portable generator frame for RV use. The grounding lug should have the frame bond and the designated neutral will find ground, if needed, from the appliance it is used with. Increased safety is achieved when the frame on a genset having the power outlet grounding lug bonded to the genset frame is also bonded to earth ground.
I hope this is a little clearer than muddy water.
BTW, our extended summer RV travels have come to an end :(. It is now time to return to a job.
โAug-01-2007 02:47 PM
โAug-01-2007 02:17 PM
Old & Slow wrote:
I'm sorry professor, can't see very well, in this muddy water. From the view I have I'm lost as always when it comes this subject and only wish to have a more clear picture. Being one of those (OLD) guys that missed taking the Electric 101 class I've been handy capped through life. You explain and explain again and I so wish I could get the drift. I'm floating in muddy water trying to understand the ground, floating ground, common ground, commercial, non commercial, north, south ...I feel like a real dummy. I ran a large company but this grounding floors me. I am almost afraid to finish my project of installing my new champ by wiring a RV plug from my Retrofitted genset factory tray. I need to wire, with a RV plug and 12 gage romex into the metal transfer box used by my old Onan. It has two wire (one white I think I understand is the ground and I don't know what kind of ground) and the black that I know to be hot and in the box is a copper unprotected wire that I remember as not being used. The way the factory set up was is fool proof. The power cord from the RV, you either plug into shore power or into the socket which leads to the genset. No chance to make a mistake. So I'm still lost about this white ground wire to the RV socket.
My Champ. genset in grounding to the frame by metal contact.
Floyd
โAug-01-2007 02:07 PM
โAug-01-2007 01:56 PM