3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[racefan1965]

Thanks professor. That shows me the where and what but I'm still concerned with how. Doesn't one need to pull the start rope to turn the engine to a set point like TDC (top dead center)? If so, how do I know where TDC is? Sorry for all the confusion and questions but I'm at about 70 to 80 hours now and feel I might want to check my valve clearance soon to possibly help prevent any future problems. $300.00 might be pocket change to some on this site but it's a lot of money to me. Plus I think champion might be upping their price soon with all the RVer's out there gobbling up their gensets.

Rick

[jpkiljan]

A REASON NOT TO BUY A PORTABLE GENERATOR FROM PEPBOYS? I'm pretty happy with my 3000 watt Wen Power generator (PowerPro Model 3500D 6.5 HP) from PepBoys. It has already seen me through one short power outage. I paid a pretty reasonable $250 plus tax on it after the $50 mail-in rebate, which put it just under the cost of their competition. I think the price has gone up a bit since then with the rebate still set at $50. However, for those considering the purchase of a generator from PepBoys, consider this: a $50 rebate is not worth $50 if you never get it.

Mine never came. Instead, I got a postcard from "Pep Boys Auto Resubmit" saying that the "The receipt(s) submitted did not show the purchase of any qualifying items." Fortunately, I made copies of everything and, yes, the receipt exactly matches the item on the multi-page fill-in form plus all the times and eligible dates check out. I couldn't figure out why the sales clerk was insistent that he help me fill out their long rebate form, but he did it exactly right from what I can see. Nor, can I figure out why a quality retailer would want to hurt their reputation with this kind of thing. I'll invite PepBoys to reconsider their rejection, of course, but who wants that kind of hassle over just $50?

If the check ever does show up, I'll post a quick note here.

--John

[professor95]

Racefan1965 wrote:
How does one go about adjusting the valves and how does one know when the adjustment is needed?

Rick

4 10mm bolts and the valve cover pops off. This is what you will see:



They are adjusted by backing off the lock nuts on the center stud and moving the bottom nut. Don't memember clearance but will look it up tomorrow. I believe 100 hrs is the max recomended adjustment interval.

CPE replaced their stamped rockers with forged assemblies earlier this year. They are stronger and require adjustment less frequently. They are interchangable with the old stamped rockers. The ones picture below are not in an engine but sitting on my work bench. Not only are the new ones stronger, but they are much easier to adjust since they have adjustment screws on the push rod end of the rocker. You can purchase them from CPE parts & Service for an older model engine.

The "dropped or broken valve" issue I spoke of earlier can easily happen when these puppys get worn and loose. This was supposedly why the design change was made by Champion. As far as I know, Honda GX200 engines still use the old stamped rockers as well as other engines on different brands of gensets.

I'll look up the numbers tomorrow and let you know.


Side view

[professor95]

Wgeorge11 wrote:
Why?
The issue is the initial start up load demand. The unit "runs for hours" once it is fired up, but should not require unnecessary running before it's needed. He just needs to follow your instructions to switch from auto to propane, and reduce other power demands until the a-c is going. It doesn't matter how hot it is. It might matter how much demand the battery bank requires for charging.
Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no 'lectrician.

Actually, The Wiz has a valid point. I don't have my pressure to temperature tables handy, but as temperature rises so does the pressure of the R-22 used inside the A/C system. There is no unloader - the compressor has to start against whatever head pressure the gas presents. Thus, the hotter it gets outdoors, the higher the head pressure and the power required to start the compressor motor will also increase.

Both high and low pressure sides of the refrigeration system equalize after sitting awhile, but on a day like today the high side could easily reach 300+ PSI and the low side 75 to 85 PSI (45 to 50 degrees) running. BTW, today was the hottest day here in 30 years! The static pressure against the compressor with an equalized system running the above pressures would be about 140 PSI. On a 20 degree cooler day high pressure would be around 225-250 PSI and the low side 65 to 70 PSI (35 to 40 degrees). The static pressure would be about 90 to 110 PSI.

My numbers will be off some since I am calculating from memory but they are close enough to explain what happens.

[TKMJ]

Wgeorge11 wrote:

MrWizard wrote:

don't wait for the TT to get hot, start the A/C early in the day

Why?
The issue is the initial start up load demand. The unit "runs for hours" once it is fired up, but should not require unnecessary running before it's needed. He just needs to follow your instructions to switch from auto to propane, and reduce other power demands until the a-c is going. It doesn't matter how hot it is. It might matter how much demand the battery bank requires for charging.
Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no 'lectrician.

I would put a hardstart cap kit in the A/C unit and call it good. That's what I have in mine. My 13.5 Coleman A/C peaks at 22 amps then comes down to about 12 to 13A. The rotor lockup current on the compressor is suppose to be 51 amps but since I put the hardstart cap on, It peaks at about 22 amps on start. If it goes any higher, I can't see it on my amp meter. I also have a "peak switch" on my amp meter. It will read and hold the largest current it finds. The highest the amp meter ever read with shore power was 23 amps but I had 200 feet of cord on it attached to the receptical. With a genset the highest peak I ever saw was 25 amps. That was about 4 seconds worth of peak.

The last servicing my A/C unit saw was before I owned the coach back in 1994.

I forgot to tell you guys what hardstart kit I have.
Supco model SPP-6, It is good on all single phase A/C units from 4000 to 120,000btu (1/2 thru 10 hp) with a max load of 22amps. It's perfect for a Coleman 13.5. The Coleman 13.5 is a PSC type unit with a run cap installed at the factory. Just take the hardstart cap and paralell it with the run cap. It tales longer to remove the A/C cover then it takes to make the modification.

Ken

[Wgeorge11]

professor95 wrote:

Chinese workers make between .50 and .75 US per hour. We (Americans) want cheap goods and high wages. The two don't go together.

You're right. But it does work for the multinational corporations that import cheap labor, outsource work to cheaper markets, and hide their equity in a Bahamas PO box. America is the cash cow loaded with credit opportunities for all. In my mind it's the 21th century chattel version of 17th century indentures or slavery, and people just don't get it. One day we'll have to decide whether we're a nation state or an economic pawn to international corporate consumerism. By the time we wake up the sun may be setting on the good old days.

[Wgeorge11]

MrWizard wrote:

don't wait for the TT to get hot, start the A/C early in the day

Why?
The issue is the initial start up load demand. The unit "runs for hours" once it is fired up, but should not require unnecessary running before it's needed. He just needs to follow your instructions to switch from auto to propane, and reduce other power demands until the a-c is going. It doesn't matter how hot it is. It might matter how much demand the battery bank requires for charging.
Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no 'lectrician.

[TKMJ]

professor95 We (Americans) want cheap goods and high wages. The two don't go together.[/quote wrote:


You bet we do. How does anyone expect us to pay for and keep up our RVs without cheap parts and high wages?

One more thing, We would like to use our RVs once in a while too! LOL!!! Sorry Professor95, I couldn't resist!

[racefan1965]

professor95 wrote:
I talked with a local gentleman recently who dropped a valve (you gotta keep them adjusted) on a Honda GX200 mated to a water pump he used for irrigation from a pond to his garden.

How does one go about adjusting the valves and how does one know when the adjustment is needed?

Rick

[professor95]

wuttevr wrote:
But I have yet to completely understand just how much of the engine is cloned.

All of it. (initially, I didn't know either and asked the same question).

Every 6.5 HP 196cc Chinese Generator I have had a chance to examine has the same block casting, sheet metal, carb, etc. I have since learned that inside (piston, rod, crank, cam, etc.) they are all the same as well, with one known exception: Champion now has forged rockers vs. stamped. Still, they are interchangeable with the old rockers and Honda counterparts.

But, Champion states that they have never claimed their engine is a Honda GX200 clone.

I talked with a local gentleman recently who dropped a valve (you gotta keep them adjusted) on a Honda GX200 mated to a water pump he used for irrigation from a pond to his garden. He ruined the piston when the valve dropped. He bought a JD built generator from a "buddy" with a burned out generator head for a few bucks and pulled the engine off thinking he could use it on the water pump. The crank on the generator engine has a taper, the water pump did not. He disassembled both engines and made one from the combination Honda and clone parts. He says it runs perfectly and saved him over $400. I have no reason not to believe him.

I know the owner of local lawn and garden sales and repair shop. He now sells a Chinese Honda GX clone for a replacement engine (we now call them Chonda engines) for about half the price of the GX it copies. He also says the engines are identical and swears by them as a replacement.

Check out some of the go cart forums. Same story, Chonda = Honda.

This should come as no surprise since China has copied just about every part on every make and model of vehicle. They are sold at AutoZone, Advance Auto, etc. at a fraction of the OEM part. They fit, and IMHO, last just as long (or longer) than the OEM parts.

A lot of naysayers claim that even though the parts are interchangeable, there are some differences in the structural aspects of the castings and machining used to make the parts.

Chinese workers make between .50 and .75 US per hour. We (Americans) want cheap goods and high wages. The two don't go together.

[MrWizard]

many people have to have, a A/C ritual , make sure your appliances are on PROPANE , NOT automatic, WH 1500watts, fridge 500 watts or more, these items need to be on manually set ON propane NOT in automatic mode, this greatly reduces the total load on the generator, turn the A/C before you turn on other items, and leave the cool all the way to max, cycling the compressor is a BIG surge load, and hard to do if other items are also using electric power.

don't wait for the TT to get hot, start the A/C early in the day

[WaltinColo]

Ive run my a/c on the Champion at 7500 foot, no problem....
Havent needed to run the a/c higher then that yet.. 🙂

I have, however, ran it to charge up the pup batteries (2-6 volt deep cycles) at 9000 feet....

[ddav15]

kjswensen wrote:
After following this site since about page 50, i bought a Champion(and a 31' Jayco Designer 5er). We took them both out last weekend for their inaugural debut.... We were camping at about 5600' and everything was going great until the ac kicked on....
I found that if anything else was on (ceiling fan, tv, radio...etc) and the ac pump kicked on, the gen would bog down and die. i had to find the perfect dance of turning items on one at a time, after the ac was on, to keep the gen running smooth. once everything was up and running the gen purred for several hours with no issues.

im wondering if it is the altitude, too much load, or a combination? does anyone else have to go through a ritual to get everything running smooth or am i doing something wrong?

Your AC must not have a soft start kit, so it requires alot of amps to start up. After start up the amps required are alot less. Maybe you should just set it cold enough where the AC stays on all time. Also maybe your coach batteries are low and some of the juice is going to charge the batteries. The Champion should be more than enough to run any normal RV AC at that altitude.

[kjswensen]

After following this site since about page 50, i bought a Champion(and a 31' Jayco Designer 5er). We took them both out last weekend for their inaugural debut.... We were camping at about 5600' and everything was going great until the ac kicked on....
I found that if anything else was on (ceiling fan, tv, radio...etc) and the ac pump kicked on, the gen would bog down and die. i had to find the perfect dance of turning items on one at a time, after the ac was on, to keep the gen running smooth. once everything was up and running the gen purred for several hours with no issues.

im wondering if it is the altitude, too much load, or a combination? does anyone else have to go through a ritual to get everything running smooth or am i doing something wrong?

[Wuttevr]

Back to altitude....

What is the highest anyone has successfully run their A/C? My Champ started pissing & moaning at about 8,000+.

I live at altitude, so I could use a leaner jet. If anyone has come across anything compatible, please speak up. I know they are available for Honda. But I have yet to completely understand just how much of the engine is cloned.