3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

the little champion 1200/1500 is 120v only, the new electric start RV model 40008 is 120v only

[Oldfordman]

toprudder wrote:
Someone mentioned the wiring terminology in the UK. The UK has put a lot of thought into safety. I like the plugs and outlets they have.

I found the same to be true in Germany and the rest of the Continent in the 60's. Isn't it amazing when you get the opportunity to completely start over without all the legacy systems that have been drug along over the years. When a country is almost bombed flat it is a lot easier to start over and leave out the mistakes of the previous development. They get twice the work from the same sized wire with their higher voltage lighting system. Less copper required.

[Old___Slow]

To all:

I lied about this ONLY one more time thing.

I have had limited contact with Mr. Cole who is the Senior Technician with Champion Power Equipment. He is what I believe a man who has the best interest of RV folks in his heart. We are important to him. He has his own set of problems in bring us what we need in a RV genset, to be used in various placements. The Champion C46540 in use by myself, in it's placement is in question.

My thought, maybe we can ask Mr. Cole to give us a 110v (only) genset. Maybe the rules of using this genset will aid in our use.


Toprudder:

This is on of those bads, adding this into a message to all.

You sir, are a Champion........UK Good------US bad.


O&S

[Old___Slow]

Gentlemen:

I'm going to slip in here ONE more time. OK, I should not have been in the discussion in the first place, having only limited knowledge of circuits. I have learned at age 73 some basic 101 stuff. I just want to say I was slowly dying with thought of cancer when I arrived at this thread. You men have been saviors to me. Thank you. Now I have a possible answer to my question of: Why did I find, when making a attempt, to wire my portable Champion genset, into the junction box in the factory compartment, only the black and white wires were used. Just maybe I have the answer. "The old Onan was 110v only". The fact that in my circuits both in my home and the RV, this green wire meets a end, dropped in the circuits. . Does this make any since? So I see many problems with portable gensets producing 220v and 110v being used in RV's,to meet the need of 110v only. Ok, different rules all over the place. Home panels/RV panels, 110v/220v and under different rules. It's to much from me to sort out. I will allow the men who come into this thread yesterday, to sort through the rules. I had a simply problem. This bloody copper/green wire in my RV circuit( the genset junction box) not being used. Also these two guys are duking it out, one has two legs the other has three legs (my 110v plugs). Thanks,

O&S

PS: I do believe the ONAN genset circuit was bonded (now I'm not sure here) to the frame. This floating around white wire may kill me yet.

[MrWizard]

thats exactly what the prof and I keep saying

[JConatser]

toprudder wrote:
...in my RV, the built-in genset DOES have the neutral and ground bonded. When operating from the generator, the generator IS treated as the main panel I guess.

Indeed it is, but therein lies the *potential* problem.

At a Main Panel there should ALWAYS be a ground rod driven in order to ensure that both the ground AND THE NEUTRAL WIRE THAT'S BONDED TO IT are at a good, safe ZERO Earth ground potential. So the question is: do you drive a ground rod and connect it to the generator's ground and neutral before you fire it up?

If you do, then you're fine, no problem. If you don't, however, the moment you fire your generator up, it's metal frame, along with the metal parts of your RV, are now part of the generator's ungrounded, FLOATING NEUTRAL.

I don't know about you, but I don't want my wife and grandkids (or me either, for that matter :E) walking around my RV bumping into a 120VAC FLOATING NEUTRAL.

Knowing full well that I'm not going to be diligent like I should be and ALWAYS drive a ground rod before I fire up my generator, I simply unbonded it's neutral and ground connections. Although that's not a 100% perfectly safe "fix", I have absolutely no doubt it's a whole lot safer than an ungrounded 120VAC FLOATING NEUTRAL being part of my generator and RV's frame.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

in my RV, the built-in genset DOES have the neutral and ground bonded. When operating from the generator, the generator IS treated as the main panel I guess. The transfer switch properly isolates the shoreline from the RV system when operating from the generator. But that makes me wonder, if I have the shoreline connected while I run the generator (which I do when I perform the monthly exercise of the generator) is the RV still grounded through the shoreline. I can't think of a good reason why the ground would not stay connected.

Code-wise, the generator is a 'separately derived system' and needs to have the neutral and ground bonded. This bond should be disconnected from the RV by the transfer switch when running on shore power. If it's just a 120 volt generator, there is no neutral (code-wise) and none of the code requirements about neutrals apply, but almost everybody talks about it having a neutral wire anyway and incorrectly think the code requirements apply. With a 120 volt generator the NEC allows one conductor to be grounded (to the frame in the case of an RV), creating a grounded conductor, or it also may be allowed to float. By convention all RV manufacturers appear to create the grounded conductor for built-in generator installations. There are valid arguments to have the grounded conductor and valid arguments to let it float. Another debate that may never end.

The ground wire from the shore plug should be securely connected to the RV frame at all times.

The info about the UK wiring is interesting, and sounds a lot different from Germany, where many plugs can be freely inserted in either direction, and these generally don't make contact with the safety ground.

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:

toprudder wrote:
You mean neither of the conductors is referenced to ground? Not correct, they have 230v with one hot and one neutral. It is one leg of a three phase 400v system with a neutral, just like there is a 208/120v three phase system in the US. It is also 50 Hz.

No, I didn't mean that at all.

Before I posted that, I thought you were saying both load conductors are hot relative to ground. After I posted, I realized that you probably meant "derived" to mean a center-tap, two hot wire setup. My bad.

You have a lot of knowledge on the subject and do a good job explaining the technical stuff. I, on the other hand, know just enough sometimes to get me in trouble. 🙂

Someone mentioned the wiring terminology in the UK. The UK has put a lot of thought into safety. I like the plugs and outlets they have. Large, but very well engineered. The plugs have fuses built in, that protect the wire and product exterior to the plug. In the US, we can plug a 16 gauge zip-cord product or extension cord into a 20 amp circuit. I have never thought that was a good idea. In the UK, they can plug smaller wire than that into an outlet, but the fuse in the plug protects it. Also, the socket won't allow something to be stuck into just one of the holes, both holes have to have something inserted simultaneously before it will work. Both prongs are also insulated except for the very tips, which prevent someone from touching the prongs and getting shocked while the plug is part-way inserted.

I've heard (from someone that I trust) that they also wire the convenience outlet circuits differently than the US. As I understand it, they loop the branch circuit around to all the outlets then come back to the breaker. This gives two paths to the load (reduced voltage drop) and a bad connection at any one point in the system does not create a potential problem (series arc). I have not verified this, however. Perhaps someone else here can confirm that.

The wiring diagram you posted of the neutral/ground bonding is good. The important thing to note is that the RV should be considered a subpanel, and no subpanels in any residential wiring should have the neutral bonded to ground. It only happens at the main panel. However, in my RV, the built-in genset DOES have the neutral and ground bonded. When operating from the generator, the generator IS treated as the main panel I guess. The transfer switch properly isolates the shoreline from the RV system when operating from the generator. But that makes me wonder, if I have the shoreline connected while I run the generator (which I do when I perform the monthly exercise of the generator) is the RV still grounded through the shoreline. I can't think of a good reason why the ground would not stay connected. Hmmmm, I wonder. I'll have to check that out sometime.

Bob R.

[professor95]

Wayne Donhal wrote:
With multiple definitions, the debating will unfortunately never stop.

Where I grew up (Tennessee) they called the critter with black hair and a white stripe down its back a "Pole Cat".

I had a friend in West Virginia who referred to them as a "Wood Pussiecat".

Some high falootin' and sassy folks might even give it a name like "Mustela Putorius".

I remember one in a cartoon called "PePe La'Pue"

Most every one in these parts just calls them plain old "Skunks."

No matter what you call them, they are still the same critter and capable of really messing up your love life if you don't treat them with respect.

Sorta like ground and neutral........

Good night, Gents. I'm going to bed.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

You mean neither of the conductors is referenced to ground? Not correct, they have 230v with one hot and one neutral. It is one leg of a three phase 400v system with a neutral, just like there is a 208/120v three phase system in the US.

This neutral wire means different things to different people and creates a lot of debates. In North America, the technical definition of neutral requires that there be two or more hot conductors. In a 2-wire system, the white wire is the 'grounded conductor' and there is no neutral. But hardly anybody uses the correct definition and calls the white wire the 'neutral' even when it isn't. According to the Wikipedia Ground and Neutral article the grounded conductor is officially called neutral in the UK, and it implies that might not called this in other European countries.

With multiple definitions, the debating will unfortunately never stop.

[JConatser]

professor95 wrote:
...the difference in a residential circuit and an RV circuit...

Exactly. And it's this difference that causes confusion to a few people, IMHO. If they were both wired the same, then all the same rules and codes should apply. But they're not.

Even though an RV can be it's own power source with a battery and inverter and possibly a generator, it can also be (and most usually is) plugged into an electrical outlet that is fed from a Main SEP somewhere that is required to (and most usually does) meet NEC code. Which means that an RV being used under normal conditions needs to be treated like an appliance when it comes to being safely wired (i.e., neutral not bonded to ground).

[professor95]

jconatser wrote:
Here's a pic that will hopefully help everyone's understanding of ground and neutral wiring (and electrical wiring in general):

Your graphic was much better than mine. Thanks for posting it.

I have taken the liberty of altering your graphic to show the difference in a residental circuit and a RV circuit. Note that the neutral (common) in a RV is isolated from ground internally. The grounding lug (green, bare copper) is physically attached to the internal metal parts and only comes in contact with the neutral externally.

[JConatser]

O&S, the green wire is the ground wire; all the 120V outlets have a green wire attached which originates at the Main Panel Ground Bus Bar (the same Bus Bar that the Neutral wire is bonded (connected) to).

Probably in an attempt to make the picture less cluttered, whoever drew it didn't show all the green wires multipled together at the 120V outlets, but they are. Just like the Black hot lead comes over and is multipled together on all the 120V outlets, so the Green ground wire does the same.

[Old___Slow]

To all:

I just noted on the above diagram;

Hot #1 goes negative....#2 positive/ Out of Phase I'm out of here before a make a complete a-- of my total me. I do not posses enough brain power to continue. I will read future posts with interest as this subject continues. In other areas of question with Chinese gensets I would like to participate.

O&S

[Old___Slow]

jconatser:

Fine, ok, I'm tring to understand this green wire. It gets lost in some of my connections. Like UL approved appliances,they stand on two legs. Mgeorge gave a reason. Energy safely isolated. Now I see the need for the GFI'S Professor95 has placed in many circuits in his TT. There are so many unknowns with various appliances. The TT frame is suspect because of the unknowns. I will not ask for anymore information about the GFI, If Professor uses them, good enough.

O&S