โMar-02-2005 06:20 AM
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.
In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.
Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.
What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.
Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.
I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.
Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.
No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.
Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.
Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.
We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.
Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.
Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.
This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......
Randy
For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โcloningโ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โrunningโ display model.
I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:
Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)
The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โSupposedlyโ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.
The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โabove average qualityโ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.
The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.
ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โavailability listingโ.
The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ most likely universally available.
The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โreasonablyโ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โlook alikeโ eng...
โDec-22-2007 08:32 PM
โDec-22-2007 08:30 PM
โDec-22-2007 08:26 PM
โDec-22-2007 03:18 PM
generator-guy wrote:
There are a few types of brushless alternators. The most common ones do not use an electronic AVR like the Champion does. Most of them either use permanent magnets for the exciter
โDec-22-2007 03:08 PM
MrWizard wrote:mitt wrote:
Has anyone figured out how the Proforce generators regulate their voltage?
The online retailers say:
"Brushless alternator to regulate voltage, guarding your load against power surges during generator operation"
Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?
mitt
YES !
give the man a gold star, ( good study habits )
the brush less type, really is the capacitor type, with more distortion in the wave from, the feild brush type wtih AVR is a superior design
โDec-22-2007 02:50 PM
mitt wrote:
Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?
โDec-22-2007 02:38 PM
mitt wrote:
Has anyone figured out how the Proforce generators regulate their voltage?
The online retailers say:
"Brushless alternator to regulate voltage, guarding your load against power surges during generator operation"
Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?
mitt
โDec-22-2007 02:23 PM
mitt wrote:
Has anyone figured out how the Proforce generators regulate their voltage?
The online retailers say:
"Brushless alternator to regulate voltage, guarding your load against power surges during generator operation"
Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?
โDec-22-2007 02:05 PM
magic43 wrote:
To properly determine Load 1 and Load 2 and i1 vs i2, you have to take the ambidexter thermostropter and measure the center tap of the ampitillerator. You divide the difference by your wife's age and multiply the sum by the number of children that you don't have.......ho, ho, ho.
โDec-22-2007 01:54 PM
โDec-22-2007 01:36 PM
โDec-22-2007 01:08 PM
mitt wrote:
I am a mech engr by degree, but a power electrical engr in my 9-5 job, and I agree that the current in each leg of a 120/240 circuit is different, assuming you have a 120V load attached to one of them.
โDec-22-2007 11:13 AM
โDec-22-2007 09:09 AM
professor95 wrote:generator-guy wrote:
professor95 wrote:
If you take a close look at the schematic of the C46540, you will note the AVR does indeed only sample a small part of one winding. But, that is all that is necessary. In the 240 volt mode the current will be consistent at all points of the circuit - which are series interconnected.
Thanks for your post, and it's interesting you had different results. Like I said at the end of my review, "your mileage may vary". I can only speak for my particular Champion.
But the above statement you made is simply not true. Yes the two windings are in series in 240 volt mode, but the currents are NOT consistent "at all points of the circuit" as you suggest unless you're running a 240 volt load, or two identical 120 volt loads with one on each leg. The windings are in series but with essentially a center tap. I think you neglected to consider that in your statement above?
Well, if my statement is not true, then Mr. Ohm and Mr. Kirchhoff really screwed up when they made their discoveries and laws.
Now, if the winding(s) in question were purely resistive, you might have a good point to argue with the center tap being present. But, they are not purely resistive. You have induction and capacitance added into the mix. Thus, what you are looking at is a RLC circuit. The current in a series RLC circuit is the same through every component. The current has exactly the same value at the same time in all parts of the circuit โ even with a center tap.
Analysis of RLC circuits can be pretty complex requiring phasor algebra to fully analyze them. This is not the place to delve into all the complexities and formulas required.
If this is a subject that you are not familiar with, I suggest you enroll in one of my Fundamentals of AC Circuits classes. I will be teaching one next quarter, which begins in March.
โDec-22-2007 08:46 AM
mitt wrote:
Was there a consensus that the Onan Homesite line is the same brand labeled unit as the Champion? If so, does the Homesite line use AVR? I cannot find any mention of it, and I cannot find any wiring diagrams for the Onans.