3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

quabillion wrote:
Ok got some more test data here on Budracers generator.
The AVR label reads; 6A 6.5kw\60hz\120v\240v

Voltage reading between the avr main winding taps is 60v.
Voltage reading between the neutral and tap lead "W" is 240v.
Voltage reading between the neutral and tap lead "Re" is 290v
Voltage reading between the hot and tap lead "W" is 275v.
Voltage reading between the hot and tap lead "Re" is 305v.

Readings were taken with the gen in oem spec, no electric load.

After reading the label, i thought, ok, maybe. But after seein these numbers, im not sure agin:h

Professor, the wire schematic is a complete representation of the actual wiring harness. They really did build it just like that, no more, no less. The hots, neutral and ground are 8AWG, all else is 14AWG.

275-290-305

thats a peak difference of 30v and a 15v difference between windings and neutral

i've seen similar readings on other gensets, thats what happens between a little NO load 'back EMF' where the tap might a turn or two of wire off dead center.

so one way your reading a 'little ' extra and the other way a little less

I wouldn't worry about those numbers,

that 60 volt reference into the AVR from tapped windings, means 'run it as is' or get a replacement genny,

I doubt any changes could be made using the current setup

a replacement AVR that uses 120 volt ref, and total removable of the OEM AVR, might work, but you need to measure the OEM AVR out put voltage ( field voltage required, 24, 28, 30 ? )and find one rated at the voltage and enough field amps for 6k genny

[quabillion]

Ok got some more test data here on Budracers generator.
The AVR label reads; 6A 6.5kw\60hz\120v\240v

Voltage reading between the avr main winding taps is 60v.
Voltage reading between the neutral and tap lead "W" is 240v.
Voltage reading between the neutral and tap lead "Re" is 290v
Voltage reading between the hot and tap lead "W" is 275v.
Voltage reading between the hot and tap lead "Re" is 305v.

Readings were taken with the gen in oem spec, no electric load.

After reading the label, i thought, ok, maybe. But after seein these numbers, im not sure agin:h

Professor, the wire schematic is a complete representation of the actual wiring harness. They really did build it just like that, no more, no less. The hots, neutral and ground are 8AWG, all else is 14AWG.

[Old___Slow]

fave prof,

still one handed but trusting father time. so, i'll chime in and out real quick. what would i ever do without having a cup of joe and 3000w chinese gensets info'?? ~ i too pray the coming storm will be kind and those who use their gennys will be safe in their operation.

floyd

[professor95]

Does any one know what has happened to Floyd (Old & Slow)?

What about the guys (and gals) in FL and along the Gulf coast of MS, LA and TX? Looks like some pretty rough weather may be coming your way. Everyone is in my prayers for the least possible impact from this storm.

Now is an excellent time to develop an emergency plan for those who are staying put which would include a small generator and safe storage of extra gasoline. I do have a "spare" genny but have no idea how to get it to an RVer in need for this storm.

It may sound silly, but I also encourage those of us on this forum that are in a position of providing assistance and communication to the folks in this storm's path to emphasize the dangers of using a portable generator improperly; especially carbon monoxide from running a genny in a garage or under an open window. Reports of inexperienced folks dying or being injured always appear after such storms citing carbon monoxide poising, burns from improper fueling or even electrical shock.

For symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning look for a headache, feeling sleepy, confusion, reddening of the skin, slow speech and slow physical reactions.

A portable generator used as a back up system for a residence should have the neutral and ground bonded to the residential earth ground. If used with a RV the neutral should NOT be bonded to the RV metal frame unless the RV frame is in turn bonded to a reliable earth ground.

All of this chatter and my warnings may seem stupid for the elite and informed membership on this thread – but remember, not everyone out there with a portable genny is as experienced and knowledgeable as we are. One of the most dangerous objects in such a situation is an unopened owner’s manual and failure to heed all those warning stickers blazingly placed on the fuel tank.

[professor95]

Loosenut wrote:
The problem with paralleling the coils in this generator (assuming that the schematic is correct) appears to be caused by the way the AVR input voltage is derived from the main windings. The AVR voltage is obtained from a portion of *both* main windings, not just a portion of one winding as in many generators in this class. When the windings are converted from 240 volts center-tapped to parallel 120 volts, the configuration of the AVR tap points change and the voltage applied to the AVR input is probably increased (it depends on the location of the tap point), the AVR lowers the field current to bring the AVR input voltage back to what is expected and this results in the low main winding output voltage. It would be helpful to know what the normal AVR input voltage is under the original factory configuration. Depending on the normal AVR input voltage and the adjustment range of the AVR (if it is adjustable) it might be possible to reconfigure the tap points.

However, it is entirely possible that this generator may not be able to be configured for full power at 120 volts without rewinding or at least moving the tap points in the main winding.

Mike

I think Mike is on to something here and for the present time I am inclined to follow his logic. Great diagnosis!

As for this "phase" thing..... Those of us have persisted on this thread interpret such loose and often inaccurate terminology as meaning the differential of the phase relationship of the two windings at any point during a full cyclic period. In other words, while MW1 is going positive, MW2 is going negative. As the Wiz once so passionately exclaimed: These are ALL SINGLE PHASE GENERATORS!

As for the result of paralleling two separate but supposedly equal windings when one is center taped for the AVR, yes, it will make a difference. Application of Ohm’s Law for parallel inductances/resistances quickly shows how an imbalance will occur.

BTW, I still question the schematic being complete for a 6,000 watt genny.

Darn good sleuthing work, Mike!

[quabillion]

I think that Loosenut & MrWizzard have got it right on the money! Dang, why didnt i think of that?

If the windings are in a series configuration, a center tap from each would yeild 120v relative to each other, 60v relative to the neutral tap.
If the windings are parallel, a center tap from each would yeild 0v relative to each other, 60v relative to the neutral tap.


(again Im assuming the windings are center tapped.)

While looking at the "exact" tap placement in the drawing, if seemed to me that 0 to maybe 8 volts would be present relative to each other. Surely the AVR has a greater voltage sample rate than this. Cant be THAT accurate. My next thought was that a center tap would be the easiest and simplest in the Mfg process, and would allow the use of a so called "120v only" AVR in a 120/240v gen head with regulation on each winding.

maybe just maybe,, sure hope this is the answer.

[pritch272]

Getting ready for a trip out tomorrow to Lake Lanier, and as I was outside this evening checking and toting stuff out, it dawned on me that I could have it cooler in the trailer if I brought the Champion out and fired it up, and being I had yet to actually hook it up to the camper, this was a good opportunity to do so.

It is mounted on a furniture dolly, so it didn't take much to get it out of the garage and down the hill to the trailer. Fired it up, let it run for about 5 minutes, then plugged in the trailer. Let it run another 5 minutes or so, then put the fan on, and a minute later the air conditioner- I could hear the generator get loaded then it ramped right back up to speed and settled steady- let it run for about an hour with the air conditioner on (a 15k), it worked just fine.

The first time I fired it up (right after purchase a few weeks ago), it was on the side of the house, the generator seemed pretty loud then, but today, it seemed a lot quieter. Probably the sound bouncing off the fence and brick wall made it seem louder. Today, I realized just how quiet it really is. The neighbors across the street started mowing their grass, one first, then the other. Each of their lawn mowers was significantly louder than the generator, and they were farther away. One was a riding mower, the other a push type.

Anyhow, I'm a happy camper.

[MrWizard]

Loosenut wrote:

This thread has been very entertaining and informative. Maybe I can offer some insight to the low output issue with this generator.

The problem with parralleling the coils in this generator (assuming that the schematic is correct) appears to be caused by the way the AVR input voltage is derived from the main windings. The AVR voltage is obtained from a portion of *both* main windings, not just a portion of one winding as in many generators in this class. When the windings are converted from 240 volts center-tapped to parallel 120 volts, the configuration of the AVR tap points change and the voltage applied to the AVR input is probably increased (it depends on the location of the tap point), the AVR lowers the field current to bring the AVR input voltage back to what is expected and this results in the low main winding output voltage. It would be helpful to know what the normal AVR input voltage is under the original factory configuration. Depending on the normal AVR input voltage and the adjustment range of the AVR (if it is adjustable) it might be possible to reconfigure the tap points.

However, it is entirely possible that this generator may not be able to be configured for full power at 120 volts without rewinding or at least moving the tap points in the main winding.

Mike

I was looking at the schematic and wondering the same thing
my champion and many other gensets sample one winding, across the winding for 120 feedback/reference voltage

this schematic has taps to both windings, of a series wound center tap setup

the reference voltage could be 120 or even 60 or even 230 depending on the tap placement, paralleling the windings, changes the reference voltage

my first thought, when diagram was posted, was that the AVR taps were mis-drawn, but now with the testing results from changes posted, it seems, the drawing is correct, the AVR is not setup the same, as to what we consider avg/normal.

the genny works as is, but NOT with full amps at 120 on (1) outlet, and cannot be changed with out replacing the AVR or perhaps modifying the tap points,
something we cannot advise on, with out knowing the TRUE reference voltage needed

[tvman44]

LooseNut wrote:

tvman44 wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
you could parallel the windings and put full amps at 120 on the twist lock and use a twist lock to RV adapter, use only (1) of the 23 amp breakers , but you might trip out the breaker when it comes time to run the A/C and the MW at the same time

the current configuration is 1 winding per duplex and 230v at 23amps at the twist lock, no way to go to 120 only with out moving wires, whether its cutting, or unscrewing, things have to be moved

It is not phase reversal you are trying to do. It is parralleling the 2 winding in phase. Out of phase is what you got when the ginny loaded down and put out no voltage. As to why only 4 volts when in phase that is a tough one.

This thread has been very entertaining and informative. Maybe I can offer some insight to the low output issue with this generator.

The problem with parralleling the coils in this generator (assuming that the schematic is correct) appears to be caused by the way the AVR input voltage is derived from the main windings. The AVR voltage is obtained from a portion of *both* main windings, not just a portion of one winding as in many generators in this class. When the windings are converted from 240 volts center-tapped to parallel 120 volts, the configuration of the AVR tap points change and the voltage applied to the AVR input is probably increased (it depends on the location of the tap point), the AVR lowers the field current to bring the AVR input voltage back to what is expected and this results in the low main winding output voltage. It would be helpful to know what the normal AVR input voltage is under the original factory configuration. Depending on the normal AVR input voltage and the adjustment range of the AVR (if it is adjustable) it might be possible to reconfigure the tap points.

However, it is entirely possible that this generator may not be able to be configured for full power at 120 volts without rewinding or at least moving the tap points in the main winding.

Mike

Seems like it would not matter which winding is monitored because you are putting them in parallel.

[quabillion]

professor95 wrote:

I am still somewhat concerned that a 13 HP engine running a 6,000 watt genhead is wired in the manner shown in the schematic he posted. The two to not add up.

Nothing adds up on this gen:h:? A DMM was not available, the wire schematic is a correct representation of what he has. The voltage meter used was the factory panel mount meter, the meter leads are connected as shown, to only one winding. Since the winding being monitored is the one with the "issue", would it be a good idea to also move the voltage meter leads to the other winding?


Surely later-on today we will hear if my suggestion of swapin the hots on the backside of the twistlok will work. I sure hope someone on here can figure out whats up with the windings "issue".

[LooseNut]

tvman44 wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
you could parallel the windings and put full amps at 120 on the twist lock and use a twist lock to RV adapter, use only (1) of the 23 amp breakers , but you might trip out the breaker when it comes time to run the A/C and the MW at the same time

the current configuration is 1 winding per duplex and 230v at 23amps at the twist lock, no way to go to 120 only with out moving wires, whether its cutting, or unscrewing, things have to be moved

It is not phase reversal you are trying to do. It is parralleling the 2 winding in phase. Out of phase is what you got when the ginny loaded down and put out no voltage. As to why only 4 volts when in phase that is a tough one.

This thread has been very entertaining and informative. Maybe I can offer some insight to the low output issue with this generator.

The problem with parralleling the coils in this generator (assuming that the schematic is correct) appears to be caused by the way the AVR input voltage is derived from the main windings. The AVR voltage is obtained from a portion of *both* main windings, not just a portion of one winding as in many generators in this class. When the windings are converted from 240 volts center-tapped to parallel 120 volts, the configuration of the AVR tap points change and the voltage applied to the AVR input is probably increased (it depends on the location of the tap point), the AVR lowers the field current to bring the AVR input voltage back to what is expected and this results in the low main winding output voltage. It would be helpful to know what the normal AVR input voltage is under the original factory configuration. Depending on the normal AVR input voltage and the adjustment range of the AVR (if it is adjustable) it might be possible to reconfigure the tap points.

However, it is entirely possible that this generator may not be able to be configured for full power at 120 volts without rewinding or at least moving the tap points in the main winding.

Mike

[tvman44]

MrWizard wrote:
you could parallel the windings and put full amps at 120 on the twist lock and use a twist lock to RV adapter, use only (1) of the 23 amp breakers , but you might trip out the breaker when it comes time to run the A/C and the MW at the same time

the current configuration is 1 winding per duplex and 230v at 23amps at the twist lock, no way to go to 120 only with out moving wires, whether its cutting, or unscrewing, things have to be moved

It is not phase reversal you are trying to do. It is parralleling the 2 winding in phase. Out of phase is what you got when the ginny loaded down and put out no voltage. As to why only 4 volts when in phase that is a tough one.

[professor95]

quabillion wrote:
To MrWizzard and Professor95;

I spoke to Budracer over the telephone, he told me what he sees and i told him what wires to move around. He put the windings into parallel according to yalls posts, Y and Bu paired, Br and Re paired at the terminal block on the gen head. the breaker feeds were paired and connected to the Y and Bu pair, the neutrals were paired and connected to the Br and Re pair. Started the gen, voltage meter reads 4v, apply a ceramic heater load, no change on meter and heater dosent work. Thinking that the windings were "fighting" each other, i told him to reverse the Bu and Re wires coming from the windings. Started the gen, voltage meter reads 0v and the gen is quite "loaded down" sounding. Quite sure that is not what we need, as they are obviously "fighting", so the Bu and Re go back to the way they were. After much head scratching I came to the conclusion that this gen cannot support phase reversal, so budracer put everything back to OEM spec.

In talking with Budracer he told me that when he uses the twistlok dogbone, he gets very low voltage and breaker tripping. However, if he uses a 15A to 30A "hockey puck" adapter plugged into the 20A outlet he can run his rig A/C and microwave with no problems. This is make'n me think that there might be something wrong with one of the two windings or the AVR. I recommended that he "reverse" or "swap" the two hot lines feeding the twistlok, in order to get his rig load onto the properly working winding. While not ideal, this setup "may" still be ok for what budracer needs it for. I say "may" because he hasn't tried the rig with the twistlok dogbone and the hots swapped yet.


But the question for the experts is, A; How can you tell beforehand is a gen will or will not support phase reversal? and B; What would explain the severe voltage drop on winding "A", but no drop when the same load is applied to winding "B"?

"After much head scratching I came to the conclusion that this gen cannot support phase reversal"

Assuming that you do indeed have the right wires (did he check resistance with a good DMM for absolute identification, leakage, etc.?)

The construction of the coils may indeed be different or faulty. If the impedance/resistance of the two is not extremely close, the results he experienced is probable.

I am still somewhat concerned that a 13 HP engine running a 6,000 watt genhead is wired in the manner shown in the schematic he posted. The two to not add up.

[quabillion]

To MrWizzard and Professor95;

I spoke to Budracer over the telephone, he told me what he sees and i told him what wires to move around. He put the windings into parallel according to yalls posts, Y and Bu paired, Br and Re paired at the terminal block on the gen head. the breaker feeds were paired and connected to the Y and Bu pair, the neutrals were paired and connected to the Br and Re pair. Started the gen, voltage meter reads 4v, apply a ceramic heater load, no change on meter and heater dosent work. Thinking that the windings were "fighting" each other, i told him to reverse the Bu and Re wires coming from the windings. Started the gen, voltage meter reads 0v and the gen is quite "loaded down" sounding. Quite sure that is not what we need, as they are obviously "fighting", so the Bu and Re go back to the way they were. After much head scratching I came to the conclusion that this gen cannot support phase reversal, so budracer put everything back to OEM spec.

In talking with Budracer he told me that when he uses the twistlok dogbone, he gets very low voltage and breaker tripping. However, if he uses a 15A to 30A "hockey puck" adapter plugged into the 20A outlet he can run his rig A/C and microwave with no problems. This is make'n me think that there might be something wrong with one of the two windings or the AVR. I recommended that he "reverse" or "swap" the two hot lines feeding the twistlok, in order to get his rig load onto the properly working winding. While not ideal, this setup "may" still be ok for what budracer needs it for. I say "may" because he hasn't tried the rig with the twistlok dogbone and the hots swapped yet.


But the question for the experts is, A; How can you tell beforehand is a gen will or will not support phase reversal? and B; What would explain the severe voltage drop on winding "A", but no drop when the same load is applied to winding "B"?

[MrWizard]

you could parallel the windings and put full amps at 120 on the twist lock and use a twist lock to RV adapter, use only (1) of the 23 amp breakers , but you might trip out the breaker when it comes time to run the A/C and the MW at the same time

the current configuration is 1 winding per duplex and 230v at 23amps at the twist lock, no way to go to 120 only with out moving wires, whether its cutting, or unscrewing, things have to be moved