3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[pritch272]

walkers2rad, enjoyed reading your posts, thanks for sharing.

[MrWizard]

walkers2rad

nice review / testing, thank you for the info.

[Matthew_B]

It looks like all of the EBAY listings are now updated to remove references to a TT-30 plug.

If the generator is really a 2400W unit, then a 20A plug is OK.

The pictures online show the 120V plugs rotated by 90 degrees from a "normal" receptacle. So the twin 15A to one 30A adapter wouldn't work if that's how they're put on the generator.

[Matthew_B]

walkers2rad wrote:
Subsequent testing finds that with 1kw loads there is a significant difference in speed with economy mode on and off and at 1750w they match up about the same and loads over that gains more speed, all as to be expected.

So do I read that to mean that eco mode off, the generator doesn't run at full speed, but at a lower intermediate speed.

Sounds like an improvement over a EU2000. They're freaking annoying with ECO off since they spin so dang fast.

[walkers2rad]

So I ran all of the tests that I could think of, let me know if there is anything I missed that might be worth the trouble. I could probably get a scope to look at the sine wave but I dont know if that would be of much value.

First the 12v battery (overcharging) output. I hooked up a charged auto battery reading 12.6 volts. Economy mode with no load voltage climbed quickly to 15.75v, ramped up to speed 17v. So leaving this on a battery you like will not do it any favors unless you are going to keep an eye on the voltage.

Kind of to be expected, the obvious answer would be an automatic charger. In the interest of efficiency I may tie this into the solar regulator on my big box trailer that only has a 5 watt panel to keep up the battery for storage but does not keep up very well when the lights and such are used much.

For some reason I wanted to find out what kind of load it takes to demand more rpm from the economy mode. At around 350-400 watts you start to notice by the sound of the engine that it is loading some with no change in speed. 500 watts is where it is obvious that the speed starts to pick up some. Subsequent testing finds that with 1kw loads there is a significant difference in speed with economy mode on and off and at 1750w they match up about the same and loads over that gains more speed, all as to be expected.

So I turn off all breakers in the MH except the input and the A/C. Measure the fan only draw to find 275w lo and 300 hi, consistant front and rear. Give a try to start the rear compressor w/fan on low in the economy mode and no other load and no dice, stalls the motor with too much surge load with the rpm's so low. However I find it does start a 1550 watt resistive heater box load or a 1400 watt microwave from the economy mode. I suspect that with maybe about 600 watts of base load so that the engine has more momentum it may start the compressor but that might be just plain hard on everything. So I start it with economy mode off. I have no way of telling what the surge current was but pressure building starts at 900 watts. It settles in at about 1040 watts but it is not working hard cause it is in the cooled garage. With one a/c running I add 1020 watts of resistive load (heater box on low) to the other plug in and it picks it up kind of reluctantly and carries it. Clicking it up to a Hi 1550 watts for a total of about 2600 watts surge triggers an overload and it idles down and needs shut off and restarted to reset.
So I see what it will take by sneeking up the load slowly and at 2250 watts I add another 60watt light bulb which finds its limits. My altitude is 2650' if that makes any difference, it was likely the electronics kicking it out. At 2250 it was wound up tight like it was near its limits, sounded like 5,000 rpm's.

I check and note what all my loads are...
Reefer takes 315 watts when switched on.
TV, DVR, DVD/VHS and surround consumes 85-100 watts.
Small three stage charger for the coach battery pulls 85 watts in its bulk charging mode.
Batteries were up so did not really test the PD 45 with cw, if I remember right it takes what it wants up to 875 watts. Since the batteries are up and it is in float mode, draw was minimal.

The only additional mods I have planned for it is possibly add that rv recept and an hour meter to be able to see how long it lives. I am hoping at least long enough to pay for itself in gas savings to make the convience factor a bonus. It will save me the most using it on the houseboat. I expect at least a 75% fuel savings over the 8kw westerbake marine 4cyl. I hate running that for several hours a day just to run the chest freezer and keep up on the batteries. The savings in not having to buy so much ice may be a side benefit.
I expect to save at least half or more as an alternitive to running the 5500 onan a good deal of the time. Being able to run a single a/c at night for sleeping while camping in the summertime will be a great comfort for sure when the nighttime temps are high. I can handle a dollar an hour at todays gas prices much better than twice that.

I will come back and own up to it if the smoke gets out of it before its time, but for now I am happy with it as it does everything I need it to do.
I hope that everyone understands that I didnt share any of this to try to convince anyone to buy one of these or sell out of whatever they are using, especially if they like what they have. It is all in the spirit of sharing of knowledge and experience. Not everyone needs to be saved from themselves and if nobody goes out on a limb nothing gets learned.

Ray

[MrWizard]

a great many scooters and motorcycles use a vacuum operated fuel valve, little chance of carb flooding while in storage, but a real B***** to kick start on a dry carburetor,

i wish my wheels with the vacuum fuel valve, had the pump and primer

[professor95]

walkers2rad wrote:
So this is the fuel mod I did to allow hooking up to any external fuel source be it marine tank ........

Looks like a Minuki dual port vacuum actuated fuel pump used on go carts.

[walkers2rad]

So this is the fuel mod I did to allow hooking up to any external fuel source be it marine tank or in my case the main 75 or aux 25 gal tanks of my RV. Nice thing about doing it this way is that I can shut off the on board tank and run aux without messing with any kind of thru cap set up and when not everything operates normally.

Fuel from the built in tank enters in that open nipple to the left and goes to a fuel shut off valve, after that is the "Y" that I put in. I punched a small hole in the case only big enough for the barb of the quick connect with built in shut off to poke thru and clamped the hose to it. The thing to the right is some kind of vacuum operated lift pump as far as I can tell. Funny thing is that I thought of the primer bulb as more like an outboard primer but it is more just a vacuum pump to run this pump. The third line on it goes to what looks like manifold vacuum.

[WaltinColo]

I offer things from time to time...
What i wont be offering is asking the same question every page in a 629 page thread. 🙂

[walkers2rad]

Maybe you can call the supplier who advertises all parts in stock and get some sort of replacement parts cost breakdown. That would be extremely interesting!



Hmmmmmmm -
Don't want to sound jaded here, but -
Walkers, where have you seen that suggestion before?

~
JC

JC,
Funny you should mention that because I was going to follow up on the issue of it not having the 30amp RV recept and while I was at it brought up spare parts. If anybody doesnt want to read the e-bay dirty laundry move on to the next post.
In the interest of disclosure here it is... At least a partial victory for you bay haters... enjoy! Question about my dilema on the bottom.
My first e-mail sent monday night... went something like this (excerpts to shorten it)
"my only issue is that it did not happen to come with the "built in 30 AMP RV (TT-30) receptacle for direct plug in for most RV's." as the listing states.
You may not consider that a major issue, however that configuration is how I expected to use it and was a major consideration in bidding. I am hoping that there is a way you can send me the RV panel for me to install.
I may be interested in purchasing some spare parts for it ie:..."

I get the playing stupid and offer to buy me off reply.

"the rv amp is installed in the unit. if you need a plug in then only place to get that adapter plug in is at radio shack. they are 15 dollars. we can credit you that amount of money. let me know if i can further assist you."

Radio shack... gimme a break! RV amp installed? Watcha talking bout willis?

"The unit you sent has two 15 amp standard household outlets. This is copied and pasted directly from your listing, not something I just made up... "It also has a built in 30 AMP RV (TT-30) receptacle for direct plug in for most RV's" The pictures in the manual show it along with one standard outlet if you dont know what one looks like. It allows the full output of the generator which may exceed 20 amps to be availabe at the RV receptacle. A 15 amp outlet is just that and trying to pull more power out of it is obviously asking for trouble.
Your listing also states... "We are always fully stocked on all parts for our GX-3000 watt digital generator if you ever need them in the future.". So I would assume that you stock the correct RV panel along with the parts I asked about.

If your supplier did not send generators with the configuration you expected then you are going to have nothing but problems with the RV market you are targeting with your listing as it is."

Reply, not getting what I want but there is a refund option.

"we have only the parts that you have on your generator. we can credit you money if you need to buy that 15 dollar adapter. you were the first one we sold to so we have fixed a couple things in our site. there is a built in 30 amp however there is no plug in recepticle. we carry every part that you see on your generator.

any other part we can credit you money for you to buy or i will have ups pick up the unit.

let me know before your 30 day return warranty expires."

Now I know some of you want to say take the refund and run but that is just not the direction I care to take, besides I made a small hole in the case for the fuel mod I will detail later.

There are a few ways I can deal with this situation from here and I could use some input.
1. I could plug into it with an adapter like I tested it, it is a pretty heavy duty one and may be able to take the current but I dont know about the recept. My most severe draw which would be rare would be running a single coleman mach a/c out of my two which has a load share/shed system to be able to run from a 30a service on my 06 fleetwood 32'. I dont know what btu they are but I am sure it is not the big ones. The most draw I have measured from it is about 1650 watts. I can shed any other load and this would probably only be at night for sleeping when it is hot and humid fridge on gas and 130w solar keeps the batts up pretty well. Do you think I can safely draw that thru the adapter on a single outlet?

2. I have seen an adapter block for a honda that takes the two outlets and combines them into a 30amp recept for full power. I dont know if my outlet config would match up so I would have to look into it, but do you think these outlets could be tied together to safely get full output from this gen?
Although I would probably do it by taking a 30a female pig tail I have and grommet and strain relief it thru the panel and solder and heat shrink them all tied together.

What do you think? I will ask him for a parts price list in my reply.
Thanks in advance for your input.

This is the gen load running an a/c, moho was in the garage so it wasnt working quite as hard as it normally would.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

professor95 wrote:

walkers2rad wrote:
Professor... Is there a difference in the claimed digitals and what honda does? Somewhere I read that they were transistor technology and more of a msw output? Just curious cause I dont know.

Maybe you can call the supplier who advertises all parts in stock and get some sort of replacement parts cost breakdown. That would be extremely interesting!

Hmmmmmmm -
Don't want to sound jaded here, but -
Walkers, where have you seen that suggestion before?

~
JC

[Old___Slow]

Walt,

Perhaps my desire for more quiet is to be found in 'new technology' that is unproven to me as to relibility. Certainly Honda and others are giving the market increasingly lower cost inverters. For me, the tried and proven is desireable. The noise factor WILL soon be less of a issue. At that time, what will Walt have to offer this thread?

Floyd

[professor95]

walkers2rad wrote:
Professor... Is there a difference in the claimed digitals and what honda does? Somewhere I read that they were transistor technology and more of a msw output? Just curious cause I dont know.

There are some "lower end" digital generators that do use TTL (Transistor-Transistor-Logic) technology to produce a so called MSW (modified sine wave). The ones I have seen are in the 1,000 watt output class.

Honda does not use TTL circuits to produce a MSW in their inverter gennys. It also appears that what you have is not a TTL inverter.

As for Matthew_B's comments on spectacular melt downs - well, it does happen. The electrolytic referenced could fail, but it is highly unlikely unless the case is punctured or an extreme over voltage occurs. One thing for sure, when an electrolytic lets go it will sound like someone fired a shotgun!

The doughnut things are ceramic-ferrite toroidal core transformers. They are typically used in high frequency circuits rather than traditional iron core transformers due to their high permeability. As Matthew_B pointed out they may also be wound as single layer inductors to block DC current. What purpose they serve in your unit is something I cannot determine from just the photo - but the number of turns and size of the wire visible on them makes me suspect that they are inductors rather than transformers.

As for the other parts of the circuit - one can only guess. I would hope that both the front and rear end of the inverter would be adequately protected by fuses and diodes.

In this type of genny overload is the worst enemy as it is possible to create excessive heat in the P/N junctions of the most critical devices used in the module. It would also be useless in the aftermath of an atomic bomb explosion as the electro magnetic field generated by such would destroy the components. Of course, it would most likely destroy us too - so why worry?

From what you have shared, it looks like a well built unit. What I would find interesting is the replacement cost of the module. Maybe you can call the supplier who advertises all parts in stock and get some sort of replacement parts cost breakdown. That would be extremely interesting!

Thanks for sharing all this excellent information and photos.

[WaltinColo]

Old & Slow wrote:
JC,

It's a mystery to me, the mutiny at see. Ol' Eagle eye, what is it? Maybe got one of those 'Flux Capacitors'?

Floyd

PS: Me? I'm gunna look to Prof' for help with lower dbA from my tried and proven, ol' Yeller and Black.

Huh? :? :R :h
Is this english?
The only thing i understand is what appears to be a plee for a quieter genny.... so ill just chalk this posting up as "Floyd's #583 request for the same ole thing"
the records stuck..
the records stuck..
the records stuck..
the records stuck..
..ziiiiipppPPP!
🙂

[walkers2rad]

Matt, thanks for pointing out the things I wasnt sure of... Sometimes I know just enough to be dangerous! Spectacular failure and smoldering blocks of charcol, now you are starting to scare me! Could happen but minor in comparison to the things I have seen as far as failures go.
I have worked with gen sets up to 2000kw and diesel electric haul trucks capable of payloads in excess of 340tons (do the math on how many fully loaded semi's you would have to pile in the back of one of these to fully load it) How many electrons it takes to move that load up grades greater than you have ever seen on a highway. The braking it takes to stop it from 55mph. I spent several weeks helping to make one fully autonomus, if you want to talk about serious potential for costly damage.