3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

professor95 wrote:

MrWizard wrote:

Yhea gads, I sound like a 13 year old girl trying to decide which pair of jeans to wear to the movies......

you do, really get into it... decisions..decisions

Having had a 13 year old daughter (now 28) I will never forget her trauma while making such a major life threatening decision and the utter fear in her eyes that she could be wrong…… all the while I am listening and wondering if it will ever be possible for this country to elect a woman president.

Come on, George, didn’t you watch the movie, “The Absent Minded Professor” in your younger years? Hardly a day goes by now that I do not wonder if maturity is nothing more than a cyclic function of the mind. :W

i'm almost as bad as 'Fred McMurry', I don't think i would forget to get to the church to get married, but i can definitely forget to eat when i'm working on something, and i can get side tracked sometimes when working on something, but usually though Time or Finances limit my options so I don't have to many choices to worry about, acting like a teenage girl that can't decide on her jeans is NOT one of my problems, but i have enough others to make up for it.

[snarfattack]

professor95 wrote:
What you propose may work just as well. But, what is beginning to concern me is that as we move away from a true vacuum venturi that is picking up the LPG gas and moving it all into the inlet is a system whereby LPG could easily build up where we do not want it to accumulate. While LPG is only 1.5 times as heavy as air, it has a tendency to go and collect where it wants to - more dependent on air currents than weight.

That makes sense. The fuel/feed block preventing any gas from falling down and pooling in the air filter under any circumstances makes sense.

I remember when I was converting the 13hp engine to LPG US Carb informed me I was required to have a fuel solenoid and vacuum switch to control the solenoid. The idea was that there would be no fuel to the low pressure regulator unless there was vacuum from the manifold.

My reaction was "why"? I could not see where such a system was needed if the demand type KN regulator was used. Still, they insisted it must be part of my set-up. My point is that there are certain checks and balances when working with a pressurized gas - even if the pressure is .6 psi at the manifold - that we must respect for safety reasons. So, even if I do not initially agree or see a need, I bow to those with much more experience than I in the field of LPG safety.

Those are regulations that they have to cite to protect themselves from lawsuits. Also, there is a small chance that the atmospheric pressure difference between the intake manifold and outside could be just enough vacuum to draw fuel in even when the engine is off, especially while the engine is cooling down.

Quite frankly, the guy who was sticking the tube from the propane torch into the carb inlet on his lawnmower did manage to cut his grass - but his method runs a chill up my spine.

Again, going to bottom line, venturing to use such a set-up is going beyond an area where I would feel personally comfortable from a safety point of view. If it really were that simple, I am confident that is what the LPG kits would look like.

Well, putting a feed/fuel block in like USCarbs is likely the most reliable, safe way to provide vaporized gas to the engine in a dual fuel configuration. Emulating that method is a good way to approach it...

Maybe I need to get a gas detector so I can see if any fuel dribbles down when the tube is that far out... Never pass up a good excuse for another tool 😄

[professor95]

snarfattack wrote:

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I'm asking if we need the white feed block made of cutting board that goes between the carb and the air filter? Why not route the feed tube in a hole we drill in the air filter housing and strap the feed tube down in a position that is covering the carb inlet? As long as it creates sufficient and the correct amount of vacuum for varying loads to actuate the regulator properly it should work.

I think we still need the load block for purposes of fine-tuning the mixture, especially if we move up to larger feed tubes.

No, you were clear - I just read too fast and hit the reply trigger before I realized my mistake. Please go back and read the edit I made to my goofed up response. :S

[Salvo]

snarfattack wrote:
Ok, I've gotta question... Why bother with a feed block for the constant speed engine at all? There is space in the air filter to drill a hole through the filter housing, route the tube up and use a strap to hold the feed tube in place in front of the carb inlet opening.

You want to know if you can eliminate the feed adapter that goes between the carb and air filter. You want to place the feed inside the air cleaner next to the choke. I think it could work. It's definitely worth a try. A very simple solution.

Sal

[snarfattack]

professor95 wrote:

If you go back to the 9th you will find that I gave the following response to Floyd:

Incidentally, the load block may not be needed at all! It is strictly for fine adjustment of the vacuum control for the regulator. ....... You may very well end up with the load block wide open when it is all said and done.

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I'm asking if we need the white feed block made of cutting board that goes between the carb and the air filter? Why not route the feed tube in a hole we drill in the air filter housing and strap the feed tube down in a position that is covering the carb inlet? As long as it creates sufficient and the correct amount of vacuum for varying loads to actuate the regulator properly it should work.

I think we still need the load block for purposes of fine-tuning the mixture, especially if we move up to larger feed tubes.

[professor95]

MrWizard wrote:

Yhea gads, I sound like a 13 year old girl trying to decide which pair of jeans to wear to the movies......

you do, really get into it... decisions..decisions

Having had a 13 year old daughter (now 28) I will never forget her trauma while making such a major life threatening decision and the utter fear in her eyes that she could be wrong…… all the while I am listening and wondering if it will ever be possible for this country to elect a woman president.

Come on, George, didn’t you watch the movie, “The Absent Minded Professor” in your younger years? Hardly a day goes by now that I do not wonder if maturity is nothing more than a cyclic function of the mind. :W

[professor95]

snarfattack wrote:
Ok, I've gotta question... Why bother with a feed block for the constant speed engine at all? There is space in the air filter to drill a hole through the filter housing, route the tube up and use a strap to hold the feed tube in place in front of the carb inlet opening. Would be able to use a larger tube in there as well to provide the higher volume for full load conditions. The USCarb feed block has a venturi in it to help provide the vacuum. The feed blocks we are making don't have that feature and simply are simply increasing the length of the inlet. Is that even necessary? I need to order the vacuum regulator this week so I can do my own tinkering...

If you go back to the 9th you will find that I gave the following response to Floyd:

Incidentally, the load block may not be needed at all! It is strictly for fine adjustment of the vacuum control for the regulator. ....... You may very well end up with the load block wide open when it is all said and done.

Edit:

Guess I am really loosing it. The first time I read your question I thought you were refering to the load block. Now that I have made the post, I realize it is the fuel block.

OK - in early testing for the front fuel block all I did was just poke the 1/4" tube into the front of the carburetor. It worked fine.

What you propose may work just as well. But, what is beginning to concern me is that as we move away from a true vacuum venturi that is picking up the LPG gas and moving it all into the inlet is a system whereby LPG could easily build up where we do not want it to accumulate. While LPG is only 1.5 times as heavy as air, it has a tendency to go and collect where it wants to - more dependent on air currents than weight.

I remember when I was converting the 13hp engine to LPG US Carb informed me I was required to have a fuel solenoid and vacuum switch to control the solenoid. The idea was that there would be no fuel to the low pressure regulator unless there was vacuum from the manifold.

My reaction was "why"? I could not see where such a system was needed if the demand type KN regulator was used. Still, they insisted it must be part of my set-up. My point is that there are certain checks and balances when working with a pressurized gas - even if the pressure is .6 psi at the manifold - that we must respect for safety reasons. So, even if I do not initially agree or see a need, I bow to those with much more experience than I in the field of LPG safety.

Quite frankly, the guy who was sticking the tube from the propane torch into the carb inlet on his lawnmower did manage to cut his grass - but his method runs a chill up my spine.

Again, going to bottom line, venturing to use such a set-up is going beyond an area where I would feel personally comfortable from a safety point of view. If it really were that simple, I am confident that is what the LPG kits would look like.

[MrWizard]

Yhea gads, I sound like a 13 year old girl trying to decide which pair of jeans to wear to the movies......

you do, really get into it... decisions..decisions

[snarfattack]

Ok, I've gotta question... Why bother with a feed block for the constant speed engine at all? There is space in the air filter to drill a hole through the filter housing, route the tube up and use a strap to hold the feed tube in place in front of the carb inlet opening. Would be able to use a larger tube in there as well to provide the higher volume for full load conditions. The USCarb feed block has a venturi in it to help provide the vacuum. The feed blocks we are making don't have that feature and simply are simply increasing the length of the inlet. Is that even necessary? I need to order the vacuum regulator this week so I can do my own tinkering...

[professor95]

Salvo wrote:
I'm no master of the tools or pack leader. Randy is the main man.

Thank you, but I do not see myself in that role. I am learning just like everyone else who is working on this conversion.

I like what you have accomplished, thou I was uneasy as to if it would work or not. My concern was that as vacuum increased, the KN would rise to 11" WC pressure, which would naturally feed both tubes. But, you are obviously correct in your belief that with the back block as a low speed feed the pressure would be so low that atmospheric pressure would over ride the effect on the front block and thus serve as a "vacuum leak" to lean the mixture.

In short, excellent work!

On the open frame Chinese gennys the addition of the second fuel feed block would forgo the use of the OEM air filter. There is not enough clearance to the frame. What the Chinese GX160 and GX200 clones have is a plastic block betwen the carb and engine that can be carefully drilled with a 1/8" bit. Once drilled, the plastic part of a ball point ink pen refill that is without ink (at the top) can be snipped off and inserted into the hole that was just drilled. Vacuum hose with a 3/16" ID will snug down to the ink tube just fine with a small wire tie. I know this can be done because I have done it several times to give a vacuum port for a switch or a fuel pump. It would work quite well for the low speed mixture.

That said - there is really no need for the second block on the open frame Chinese gennys because they do NOT have an econo idle. They run at 3,600 rpm or not at all. So, I'm not even sure why I was going down that road.....

Anyway, looking at my Kipor, I see similar possibilities without extending the OEM carb out so far the original air cleaner cannot be used. The same problem would occur with Honda 2000i gennys since the air filter is not designed to move outward from its original position. On Sal's engine it appears this is not an issue.

Yhea gads, I sound like a 13 year old girl trying to decide which pair of jeans to wear to the movies......

Getting back to what this is all about. Darn good job, Sal!!

[snarfattack]

AZJIM1 wrote:
Anybody else here had problems with their fuel shutoff valve leaking?

The original one starting leaking after a while and Champion sent me a new one which I installed with teflon tape in addition to the o-ring.

Now the new one seems to be leaking a little . . . not sure if it is leaking around the threads or if it is leaking in the valve itself.

If you didn't use the yellow teflon tape that could explain why it started leaking again.

[professor95]

AZJIM1 wrote:
Anybody else here had problems with their fuel shutoff valve leaking?

The original one starting leaking after a while and Champion sent me a new one which I installed with teflon tape in addition to the o-ring.

Now the new one seems to be leaking a little . . . not sure if it is leaking around the threads or if it is leaking in the valve itself.

Check the tank carefully for a crack or poor braze weld where the fuel valve screws in. Some have had that problem.

[MrWizard]

NO fuel valve problems, with my champion

[AZJIM1]

Anybody else here had problems with their fuel shutoff valve leaking?

The original one starting leaking after a while and Champion sent me a new one which I installed with teflon tape in addition to the o-ring.

Now the new one seems to be leaking a little . . . not sure if it is leaking around the threads or if it is leaking in the valve itself.

[snarfattack]

Salvo wrote:

Snarf- Not quite sure of your question. Both copper 1/4" tube ends are filed down to about a 45 deg angle. Drilling a 1/4" into the plastic feed blocks (cutting board material) provides for an extremely tight fitting copper tube. I used a plastic mallet to pushed the tube's front end to about the center of the feeder cavity.

I had a clearance problem with the throttle running into the low speed copper tube (the intake manifold side). I had to bend the tube inside the feeder block away from the throttle as well as removing some copper material from the side of the tube facing the throttle.

Sal

Yea that's what I was wondering. Curious to know if it even needs to have an angle at all on the copper tubing or if it will have enough vacuum created simply by cutting the tube off square with the level of the block. At the idle block you are not depending on the venturi effect to create a vacuum. The throttle choking the airflow may create all the vacuum you need.