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3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy


For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โ€œcloningโ€ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โ€œrunningโ€ display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โ€œSupposedlyโ€ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โ€œabove average qualityโ€ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โ€œavailability listingโ€.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ€“ most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โ€œreasonablyโ€ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โ€œlook alikeโ€ eng...






















Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.
10,029 REPLIES 10,029

Kenper
Explorer
Explorer
(Quote) The rectangular thing is most likely an AVR, just a different shape than I am familiar with. There are too many wires going in and out for it to be a capacitor. The one below is the most common style of AVR in Chinese generators. The voltage adjustment screw is on the back side as shown. It is a 10 turn adjuster, so don't give up at 270 degrees of movement. (Quote)

Mine looks identical except rectangular instead of curved. It doesn't have a hole in the side to adjust through. I didn't even notice it when I had it off but from the picture it looks like there is a small brass screw in the corner of the blue pot accessible from the back, is that it? I added a picture of it on Flikr,

Ken
Ps. I will be leaving for 2 weeks so I won't be able to check it until I get back.

I forgot to ask. If that is the adjuster, can it be adjusted while running or do you have to shut it off, adjust it, then restart it until you get it right?

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Kenper wrote:


I am not sure where the regulator is. I have a black rectanguler box on the end of the Gen head that looks like it's not adjustable. It's in the gen Head picture on Flikr. Unfortunately I can only check this site from work at night then go look at the Gen the next day. I haven't noticed any other wiring so I'm sure that's it. I will have to unbolt it to see if there's any adjustment on it. My meter is accurate so I am apparently sending 140 volts to the TT. Luckily the weather has been pretty mild so I haven't run it much. I have solar panels for the day to day stuff like TV. I stay in the TT 4 days a week for work so I don't want to fry anything.
On a side note, I pretty much live in my trailer half the time. In the summer the solar panels keep me charged up. In the winter they can't keep up. Would it be worth it to buy one of the little 800 watt genny's for lights, TV, heater fan (propane) and battery charging in the winter? They should use a lot less gas.


I had forgotten about the photos on Fliker. I just got thru looking again.

The rectangular thing is most likely an AVR, just a different shape than I am familiar with. There are too many wires going in and out for it to be a capacitor. The one below is the most common style of AVR in Chinese generators. The voltage adjustment screw is on the back side as shown. It is a 10 turn adjuster, so don't give up at 270 degrees of movement.



Take your rectangular thing loose and look at the opposite side. Keep your fingers crossed that it has an adjustment.

140 volts is not the best level to have, but fortunately it is more damaging to incandescent light bulbs than anything else. Your TV and other electronic devices most likely have a "switching" power supply and will work safely off of 140 VAC. A/C should be OK too - just a higher fan speed. Still, you need to get the voltage down to 132 or less to be absolutely sure you don't burn up the toaster or hair dryer.

Have you checked engine speed? Over speed can also create overvoltage as well as a high frequency (depending on regulator type). Back off on the governor adjustment screw a turn or two and check voltage again. It would be better to have 50 to 55Hz and 130 VAC than 60 to 65 Hz and 140 VAC.

Man, I wish you were closer. I could check that little bugger out and get it to where it is suppose to be in no time if I could get my hands on it for just an hour or so. (Voltage, RPM/frequency and power level)

As for the little generator..... I also have solar panels (300 watts) that can feed either the house or aux side of the battery banks. The house side has two 127 Ah AGM batteries, the aux has four of the same and connects to the inverter for TV, microwave, etc. The little generator will help to recharge batteries during the dark months - just be sure you are using the 120 volt AC out to run a 3 or 4 stage charger and not charging directly from a generator DC output. My little gennys are either a Kawasaki 1400 or a Kipor 2000Ti (my choice). But truthfully, I use no more fuel with the installed Champion when recharging than I do with the smaller gensets. Power is power and load is load - with a 70 amp charger on the aux side and a 65 amp on the house side the little gennys are working pretty hard to charge - thus under more load and using more than normal fuel. When using the Champion it is less than 1/2 load and it just purrs along and sips fuel.

I sure am learning - your model genny has features I have not yet seen. I will need to dig a little deeper to find out what is being used.

Please keep us posted as to what you discover on the AVR thing.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

Kenper
Explorer
Explorer
(Quote)
Check to see what type of voltage regulator you have. The HF schematic does not show the regulator. There may be a half moon unit at the very back of the generator, under the rear fined cover. If so, this is your AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator). It is a solid state adjustable unit. To adjust, you must remove the regulator and turn the tiny gold screw sticking out from the black potting material on the side you cannot see as it is mounted. Leave the wiring harness connected and run the generator as you make the adjustment.

If the AVR is not present you should find a black, square cased capacitor under the front panel cover. This regulator is not adjustable.

Hopefully you just have a bum meter and all of this will be moot.

Please let us know what regulator circuit your genny has.

You might want to check the A/C to see if it has a start capacitor. Some units did not include this item. If not, it would be best to install one for generator usage.
(Quote)


I am not sure where the regulator is. I have a black rectanguler box on the end of the Gen head that looks like it's not adjustable. It's in the gen Head picture on Flikr. Unfortunately I can only check this site from work at night then go look at the Gen the next day. I haven't noticed any other wiring so I'm sure that's it. I will have to unbolt it to see if there's any adjustment on it. My meter is accurate so I am apparently sending 140 volts to the TT. Luckily the weather has been pretty mild so I haven't run it much. I have solar panels for the day to day stuff like TV. I stay in the TT 4 days a week for work so I don't want to fry anything.
On a side note, I pretty much live in my trailer half the time. In the summer the solar panels keep me charged up. In the winter they can't keep up. Would it be worth it to buy one of the little 800 watt genny's for lights, TV, heater fan (propane) and battery charging in the winter? They should use a lot less gas.

madbare
Explorer
Explorer
lt_eggbeater wrote:
madbare wrote:
lt_eggbeater wrote:
Champion said that they are trying to make a carb compliant altitude kit. Hopefully it will happen soon. Until then I will try to make a couple of governor adjustments on the genset.


Glad to finally hear this. I have been bugging them for years about this. I live up at 9000 ft and this little thing is definitely on the rich side up here. Paul sent me an adjustable carb to help but it still needs a leaner main jet.


How many watts can you get on a stable sustained basis up there?


You know, I haven't really checked, but it will run my 13.5k btu A/C unit up here. It struggles just a little to get it started and then all is good. I think if it was tuned a little better for high altitude it would be even a little better.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
kenper wrote:
I'm beginning to think this is wired correctly after all. It is able to start the AC most times now. It bogs down for a second then once the compressor starts it runs great. Once it's running it has no trouble keeping the AC going as well as the Microwave, Fridge, etc.. I bought the trailer recently and it looks like it hasn't been used very much. I think the AC pump is just a little tight. The more I use it the easier it is to start. I was able to start it 5 times in a row using the Trailer 3 prong outlet. The built in meter reads 110 without a problem. My multi-meter may have a problem though. It reads 140, or is this an indicator of a Gen problem. Hot to hot = 0. Hot to common = 140. All the plugs read the same. Everything in the TT seems to work fine while running the Genny. I will test my multi-meter at home on my wall outlets. If this sounds like there is still a problem I can disconnect the wires and test them like you showed.


Check to see what type of voltage regulator you have. The HF schematic does not show the regulator. There may be a half moon unit at the very back of the generator, under the rear fined cover. If so, this is your AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator). It is a solid state adjustable unit. To adjust, you must remove the regulator and turn the tiny gold screw sticking out from the black potting material on the side you cannot see as it is mounted. Leave the wiring harness connected and run the generator as you make the adjustment.

If the AVR is not present you should find a black, square cased capacitor under the front panel cover. This regulator is not adjustable.

Hopefully you just have a bum meter and all of this will be moot.

Please let us know what regulator circuit your genny has.

You might want to check the A/C to see if it has a start capacitor. Some units did not include this item. If not, it would be best to install one for generator usage.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

Salvo
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
correct,
HIS windings are NOT isolated.


Thanks, if windings are not isolated then all is fine. I understood wires A, B, C and D are coming out of the generator transformer, and that they are separated.

If he's reading 140V then that may be peak value, not rms.

Sal

Kenper
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
let me try:

lets say you have (4) wires A B C D

with the genny running but nothing plugged in

you measure the voltage on your wires by pairs and write it all down

A&B 120
A&C 120
A&D 240
B&C 0
B&D 120
C&D 120


I'm beginning to think this is wired correctly after all. It is able to start the AC most times now. It bogs down for a second then once the compressor starts it runs great. Once it's running it has no trouble keeping the AC going as well as the Microwave, Fridge, etc.. I bought the trailer recently and it looks like it hasn't been used very much. I think the AC pump is just a little tight. The more I use it the easier it is to start. I was able to start it 5 times in a row using the Trailer 3 prong outlet. The built in meter reads 110 without a problem. My multi-meter may have a problem though. It reads 140, or is this an indicator of a Gen problem. Hot to hot = 0. Hot to common = 140. All the plugs read the same. Everything in the TT seems to work fine while running the Genny. I will test my multi-meter at home on my wall outlets. If this sounds like there is still a problem I can disconnect the wires and test them like you showed.

lt_eggbeater
Explorer
Explorer
madbare wrote:
lt_eggbeater wrote:
Champion said that they are trying to make a carb compliant altitude kit. Hopefully it will happen soon. Until then I will try to make a couple of governor adjustments on the genset.


Glad to finally hear this. I have been bugging them for years about this. I live up at 9000 ft and this little thing is definitely on the rich side up here. Paul sent me an adjustable carb to help but it still needs a leaner main jet.


How many watts can you get on a stable sustained basis up there?

madbare
Explorer
Explorer
lt_eggbeater wrote:
Champion said that they are trying to make a carb compliant altitude kit. Hopefully it will happen soon. Until then I will try to make a couple of governor adjustments on the genset.


Glad to finally hear this. I have been bugging them for years about this. I live up at 9000 ft and this little thing is definitely on the rich side up here. Paul sent me an adjustable carb to help but it still needs a leaner main jet.

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
correct,
HIS windings are NOT isolated.
the posters problem is that his generator has a 120- 240 switch, that only switches the meter, he gets 1/2 total power on the duplex, the generator has a 15 amp CB and a 20 amp CB , a duplex plug and a twist lock plug, and can't run the A/C and if he plugs a double adapter into the duplex he trips the breakers

he has a center tapped windings and a split feed on the duplex

the idea was to explain it to him and to get a meter read on his wires BY color.

so we can tell him which one is which, so he can re-wire it.
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

Salvo
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:

lets say you have (4) wires A B C D

with the genny running but nothing plugged in

you measure the voltage on your wires by pairs and write it all down

A&B 120
A&C 120
A&D 240
B&C 0
B&D 120
C&D 120


I don't understand this. If A&B and C&D are isolate secondary windings, then I don't see how A&D = 240V. A&D = 240V only when B&C are shorted together. If windings B&C are not tied together then I expect A&D = 0V. There is no common current path.

Sal

lt_eggbeater
Explorer
Explorer
Champion said that they are trying to make a carb compliant altitude kit. Hopefully it will happen soon. Until then I will try to make a couple of governor adjustments on the genset.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
racefan1965 wrote:
Thank you very much MR. Wizard. You and the professor have helped me tremendously and most of the time you don't even know about it.lol I stopped posting on the 3000genset thread because it seemed to go to the LPG side and I have no desire to go that way. Plus most of it goes right over my challenged brain.lol


Thanks.

I can't sing or play a musical instrument.

I have never been much at sports.

My painting and drawing skills are seriously lacking.

My gift from God was an analytical mind that works well with electro/mechanical concepts. I also have some writing ability.

Thus, I became a teacher so I could share what God gave me. I am also still learning - everyday something new is given to me.

It is not always appreciated or well received - but I keep at it anyway.

Your "Attaboy" helps me to know I can still do something worthwhile in the knowledge sharing arena.

As for the (now left behing) LPG topic..... This thread goes where the active group wants it to. As a teacher I would often start a class with one topic in mind and end with a totally different one. That's the way active learning should be. You know, strike while the iron is hot. Not every one can learn the same thing on the same day from the same page in a book.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
let me try:

lets say you have (4) wires A B C D

with the genny running but nothing plugged in

that without dis-assembling the generator head


Good explaination. Thanks.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Seafoam is a great product. I have used it for years in my Evinrude 2-stroke outboard motor.

I have recently started using two other products that are giving me excellent results. The B-12 is used like Seafoam. It has the same ingredients and the cost is about 1/2 that of Seafoam.

The other is Blaster LMT. Awsome product!!! I sprayed it into the 3 cylinders on my Evinrude this spring as directed. When I started the motor the amount of black goo and crud running out the exhaust was unexpected. It really cleaned out the residue.

I used it last night on my Honda WX-10 water pump engine. It is time to drain and clean the pool (done!) It really made a difference in how the engine ran after the treatment.

Seafoam, B-12 and Blaster LMT are all good products for keeping the internal parts of your Chinese 3000 watt class generator clean. Of course, the LMT is only good as a top engine cleaner as it does not run through the carburetor jets. But, it cleans the top of the engine fast and pretty darn good.

I do not have a light scope but do have a small pinhole CCD camera I have modified so I can poke it inside a spark plug hole. The camera when used with a fiber optic light help me to see what is inside a cylinder.

As some may know I have been using water/alcohol (-22 windshield washer fluid) injection on the 454 gas engine for over a year now. It allows me to run the Hypertech power program on regular 87 octane gas. I can promise you there is not a cleaner set of cylinders on a gas engine anywhere - unless it is new. The water has removed all carbon and EGR residue. An old trick is to remove the air filter on a small engine and spray water into the intake while the engine is running - just enough to prevent stalling. The water will break loose any carbon. It does take numerous sprays over a period of 10-15 minutes to get results. Be careful - too much water can cause engine damage. Water does not compress like the A/F mixture!

Generally, the spark plug tells the story. Learn how to "read" a plug by its color. It can tell you the state of the engine very quickly. Unfortunately, with 100,000 miles bewtween plug changes this is becoming a forgotten skill.






Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.