3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[vmckague]

I have been following this post for over 2 years never thinking I would need any of the info from all the posts. Well I guess I should have paid more attention but after 800+ pages things start to blur together. Here's my problem. I just bought a 97 Allegro Class A MH and the ohan is giving me fits. It looks like it is going to need a new regulator and the price of it is almost has much as a new 3000W chinese gen. Has anyone ever figured for sure if a 3000W gen will run in the same compartment as the ohan and not get hot. At first glance it seems the Ohan cools about the same as a 3000W gen. Pulls air in from the ends and exits out the bottom. I need to get this thing running as we are wanting to go on our first trip and I would like for everything to go well as DW has starting calling the MH the Money PIT! It seems the more we spend on this MH the more it was my idea to buy it. LOL

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:
Do you think there would be any benefit to removing the recoil starter housing? I was just thinking I could probably reduce down to a smaller duct with it gone - it appears the recoil mechanism reduces the intake area about 50%.
John

I've wondered the same thing, but never tried it. You would need some method of measuring air flow. Rather crude, but a bee smoker or even a big cigar with a lot of smoke can tell you about air flow even if the data is not measurable in CFM. Keep in mind as CFM increases the density of exhaust smoke decreases - not increases. The real tell-tale will be how much smoke the intake pulls and at what distance. Of course, this has to be done as a comparative analysis - you know, before and after.

Since it is reversible, give it a try and let us know your findings.

BTW, you do not have to replace the recoil starter to crank the engine. The engagement spindle on the end of the crank can be pulled by winding a starter rope around it.

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:

IMHO, the fan rattle issue has been over emphasized and a "fix" is rarely needed - but does no harm. There were "some" early engines that had a flexed plastic fan that would hit the shroud.

You may be hearing the Bendix on your electric starter rattle. Or, the air deflection baffles around the cylinder may bee loose or touching at a vibration point. But, in all likelihood, you are hearing internal noise from the thin walls and casing of the little air cooled engine.

Please don't laugh, but I did once try to insulate the exposed crankcase parts of a GX200 engine with a concoction something like paper mache to see if I could reduce noise. Well, it worked for the noise but did not work as oil temperatures in the crankcase soared - so it was peeled off. Maybe with an external oil cooler it would be of benefit - but the logistics just are not worth the effort for the small gains.

Your project looks great. Job well done!

Well ... like I said - the "rattle" is so minor I may even be imagining it!:@ To external inspection, the fan does seem quite secure. Probably best to leave well enough alone!

I am considering shrouding the cooling air intake to the engine to further reduce noise. Do you think there would be any benefit to removing the recoil starter housing? I was just thinking I could probably reduce down to a smaller duct with it gone - it appears the recoil mechanism reduces the intake area about 50%. I have electric start, so I really don't need the mechanism and I could gain some clearance with the end panel for sound-proofing (I'm thinking about one of those heavy foam absorptive mats about 1/2" thick over the Hardiplank - same thing as used to line my 15KW home backup genset) - however, in an emergency, I would like to design it so that I can take the end panel off the genset enclosure, unbolt the shroud and bolt the recoil starter back on. I'd probably line the intake of the shroud with carpet - maybe put a screen downstream just to be sure it doesn't get sucked thru the engine if it comes loose!:E

Regards,

John

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:


I "think" I either hear (or imagine) a slight "rattle" ... not sure if this is the infamous plastic fan on the flywheel or not. I removed the recoil starter and just poked on the fan (engine not running, of course!) - it appears solid, no slop or wiggle or anything.

Question to those who have done the RTV silicone "fix": Does the fan appear/feel "solid" when inspected statically, or is there some apparent looseness before the fix? (I don't want to "fix" something if it isn't "broke"!)

Regards,

John

IMHO, the fan rattle issue has been over emphasized and a "fix" is rarely needed - but does no harm. There were "some" early engines that had a flexed plastic fan that would hit the shroud.

You may be hearing the Bendix on your electric starter rattle. Or, the air deflection baffles around the cylinder may bee loose or touching at a vibration point. But, in all likelihood, you are hearing internal noise from the thin walls and casing of the little air cooled engine.

Please don't laugh, but I did once try to insulate the exposed crankcase parts of a GX200 engine with a concoction something like paper mache to see if I could reduce noise. Well, it worked for the noise but did not work as oil temperatures in the crankcase soared - so it was peeled off. Maybe with an external oil cooler it would be of benefit - but the logistics just are not worth the effort for the small gains.

Your project looks great. Job well done!

[jlaustin]

I have the DuroPower 3500ES with the foam-lined OEM enclosure panels, Hardibacker inner liner panels, header-muffler-exhaust wrapped and now enclosed in the Professor's fiberglass-insulated aluminum jacket mod. It's getting pretty darned quiet, so of course, the noise on the engine end is more noticeable.

I "think" I either hear (or imagine) a slight "rattle" ... not sure if this is the infamous plastic fan on the flywheel or not. I removed the recoil starter and just poked on the fan (engine not running, of course!) - it appears solid, no slop or wiggle or anything.

Question to those who have done the RTV silicone "fix": Does the fan appear/feel "solid" when inspected statically, or is there some apparent looseness before the fix? (I don't want to "fix" something if it isn't "broke"!)

Regards,

John

[jlaustin]

While sitting around waiting for the JB Weld to cure and the microvac switch to arrive Monday (:R), I came up with a circuit to integrate the microvac switch and the ability to also shut down the engine with a manual switch, the remote starter, or the low oil sensor:

When the key is in the switch on the control panel, it protrudes out beyond the recessed area where the control panel is installed. I'm going to replace it with a simple on/off switch for the ground wire. The trunk solenoid I use for a primer came with a nice momentary contact push button switch - I'm going to use that for the starter button. Removing the key switch will let me enclose the control panel recess with a flush panel for weatherproofing. Not a biggee, but it'll look a little nicer and be a little easier to fabricate!

Regards,

John

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:
John,
This is not the first time you have mentioned the air cleaner clearance being a problem.

Please tell me one thing I do not understand. For someone obviously as mechanically creative as you, why have you not devised a method for relocating the air filter? It really is not a difficult task and can be accomplished with a variety of materials ranging from PVC pipe to cut and soldered tin cans or simple flexible rubber radiator hose.

Believe me, modifying the frame or air filter has crossed my mind every time I fool with the carb! However, I guess I have been reluctant to start yet another mod when I've yet to get the LPG conversion, soundproofing, and (perhaps) ventilation in final form. I don't have the welding skills to fix the frame, so that would mean taking it out to a shop - they invariably want you to leave it - sometimes for a week - and I'm the kind of person who couldn't stand it if I wasn't standing there looking over the poor guy's shoulder when he actually welded it!:D

It is so easy to modify the carb and they aren't very expensive if you mess up (more on that in a minute!) ... JB Weld is a miracle! ... so it really seems quickest to modify what's there and not add more ancillary "stuff".

Anyhow, here's what I did with the vacuum port. I found at Lowe's a 3/16 x 3/16 hose barb connector (i.d. is 1/8") and not having a lathe, I chucked it in my drill and turned down one end with a flat file:


I drilled out the needle valve seat with a 1/8" bit and then drilled out the threaded portion of the valve with about a 3/16" bit - just so it was a friction fit for the brass barb. The red tape is a dam to catch the JB Weld when I fill the recess where the needle valve head used to reside:


The completed port (so I thought!):


When I tested for a good seal, I put my finger over the orifice inside the carb, sucked on the brass fitting, and easily pulled air!!! THEN, it occurred to me that the needle valve HAD to have an orifice internally that was communicating with the valve seat! In my haste, I had completely forgotten about it. If I had sleeved the brass all the way through the seat, it wouldn't have been an issue, but I didn't because it just naturally fit the first way I tried it.:S
Sure enough, when I looked from inside the carb, you could see a tiny port just at the edge where the brass fitting ended - this communicates to 4 tiny ports on the other side of the throttle plate when it is closed. But, recovery was easy - JB Weld to the rescue! I put a dab inside the orifice on the carb end, covered over the orifice with my finger and gently puffed on the brass barb. The JB Weld flowed down the channel and I even saw a bit occluding one of the 4 tiny orifices - for good measure, I left a rim of it in the orifice where the brass fitting terminates. The excess restricted the orifice down a bit, but you said 1/16" was plenty, anyway. If it doesn't work out - the JB weld could be easily drilled with a 1/8" bit through the brass barb. Here's a pic of the fix:


Regards,

John

[professor95]

John,

This is not the first time you have mentioned the air cleaner clearance being a problem.

Please tell me one thing I do not understand. For someone obviously as mechanically creative as you, why have you not devised a method for relocating the air filter? It really is not a difficult task and can be accomplished with a variety of materials ranging from PVC pipe to cut and soldered tin cans or simple flexible rubber radiator hose.

Additionally, getting the air filter outside the box will create a more efficient engine and help in hot weather cooling. The OEM filter is silenced well enough to not contribute to the loudness situation.

You may want to consider cutting the offending section of frame tubing completely out. Come back and replace (weld) the removed section with a piece of 3/4" angle iron so the apex meets the outside corner and does not cause the sound panels to protrude. That will give you almost 3/4" more inside room around the air filter to work with.

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:


Actually, there is.

On the Champion generators that are fueled by LPG the "insulator" behind the mixer (carburetor on gas engine) is about 1/8" thicker and contains a vacuum port. All that is required is to swap the insulator used on gasoline engines out and you have instant vacuum access. You can order the insulator from CPE. If needed, I will look up part numbers for you.

All that said, it is really easy to make a block similar to the one used to feed LPG to tap vacuum. It is thinner and needs no more than a 1/16" hole.

Another alternative is to take the existing insulator and drill a hole in it. Of course, this is best done in a drill press with a cross slide vice. Use the tube from inside a ball point pen to create the port then slip some 1/8 or 3/16" vacuum tubing over it.

I looked at my carb installation and there is a plastic insulator between the carb and the engine, but it is sort of tucked-in behind the valve cover and it appears there is almost no room to access a vacuum port in that location.

My air cleaner is already practically jammed-up against the frame - it's tight now just to get the air cleaner cover off! A thicker insulator or a feed block will make it impossible to remove the air cleaner cover. I think I'll drill-out the unused needle valve on the carb and put a port in there. I'll use the same techinique as replacing the main jet with the orifice tube - find a snug-fitting tube and then JB Weld it.

By the way, I had told you that my GM trunk solenoid I use for the primer "cycles" in that despite constant +12v, it'll depress for 2-3 seconds, release for 2-3 seconds, and continue to depress/release until current is removed. I had bought a replacement, tested it today, and it does the exact same thing! So, apparently this is the normal function. However, this has turned out to be a positive thing - when the primer depresses, invariably the engine fires when it lets up! I tried holding the primer down manually and it actually delayed the starting of the engine - most times it did not start at all. Apparently, my engine just wants a "shot" of primer and not a continuous prime.

The vac switch arrives Monday and I'll update after that.

Regards,

John

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:

professor95 wrote:

Vacuum switches are the norm for control in LPG systems. They work off of ported vacuum. Remember that little brass screw you asked about? That is a good ported vacuum source location. When you crank an engine enough vacuum is created to open a vac switch for a solenoid. If the engine stops for any reason, vac stops and solenoid closes.

I like the idea of the vacuum switch - much simpler and virtually foolproof. I could still use a relay to break a ground to kill the engine when I'm using the remote control.

As far as the ported vacuum source on the carb ... don't guess I could be so lucky that there is an off-the-shelf fitting that will screw in? If not, I guess I could just drill that screw hole out a bit and JB weld a tube in there to make a nipple to connect the vac line?

Thanks! I'm glad there's no need to re-invent the wheel!

Regards,
John

Actually, there is.

On the Champion generators that are fueled by LPG the "insulator" behind the mixer (carburetor on gas engine) is about 1/8" thicker and contains a vacuum port. All that is required is to swap the insulator used on gasoline engines out and you have instant vacuum access. You can order the insulator from CPE. If needed, I will look up part numbers for you.

All that said, it is really easy to make a block similar to the one used to feed LPG to tap vacuum. It is thinner and needs no more than a 1/16" hole.

Another alternative is to take the existing insulator and drill a hole in it. Of course, this is best done in a drill press with a cross slide vice. Use the tube from inside a ball point pen to create the port then slip some 1/8 or 3/16" vacuum tubing over it.

OEM insulator (right) compared to LPG insulator with vacuum port on left.



Typical Vacuum switch - front & back

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:

Vacuum switches are the norm for control in LPG systems. They work off of ported vacuum. Remember that little brass screw you asked about? That is a good ported vacuum source location. When you crank an engine enough vacuum is created to open a vac switch for a solenoid. If the engine stops for any reason, vac stops and solenoid closes.

I like the idea of the vacuum switch - much simpler and virtually foolproof. I could still use a relay to break a ground to kill the engine when I'm using the remote control.

As far as the ported vacuum source on the carb ... don't guess I could be so lucky that there is an off-the-shelf fitting that will screw in? If not, I guess I could just drill that screw hole out a bit and JB weld a tube in there to make a nipple to connect the vac line?

Thanks! I'm glad there's no need to re-invent the wheel!

Regards,
John

[professor95]

Whether an electrolytic capacitor would help or not is dependent on load. You would need a significantly large cap to hold the solenoid - some about the size of a drink cup.

Vacuum switches are the norm for control in LPG systems. They work off of ported vacuum. Remember that little brass screw you asked about? That is a good ported vacuum source location. When you crank an engine enough vacuum is created to open a vac switch for a solenoid. If the engine stops for any reason, vac stops and solenoid closes.

Another method is to use an AC coil relay attached to the output. Again, sufficient voltage is created just by cranking to pull in most low current AC relays and open a solenoid. Of course, when the engine cuts off it will hold until the alternator output drops as well.

You will also find a small voltage created by the coil (not the plug wire) that goes to the "transition diode". You can use this voltage to fire an optical isolator circuit for a solid state relay type control.

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:
The frame should be grounded.

It is now!:R

Professor, the lack of ground on the frame also explains why my primer solenoid quit working. I decided to mount the KN regulator to the frame, rather than the engine (I didn't like the vibration from the engine mount). I had been depending on the mount to ground the primer solenoid, so, when I bonded the frame to the genset, the primer started working again!

My latching circuit initially energizes the fuel valve solenoid with +12v from the starter (put a diode in the wire to prevent the latched solenoid from keeping the starter engaged). Right now for testing purposes, the latched circuit gets its power from +12v from the battery (I'll use a manual kill switch on the genset and the remote starter -12v pulse with a relay to break the output relay's ground to kill the engine). In the final design, I would rather derive the +12v from the genset so that if the engine dies, the valve will close by default (it's a normally closed valve 'til energized).



I notice when the propane solenoid valve is closed, it takes a few seconds for the engine to die. I haven't timed it yet, but if the +12v from the genset comes on-line pretty quickly after engine start, it might have time to re-open the fuel valve and keep the engine running when the starter voltage kicks out. If that doesn't work out, I need some method to keep the latching relay energized after the starter's +12v kicks out until the genset voltage can take over.

I just have a rudimentary knowledge of circuitry - would a capacitor in-line with the +12v from the starter keep the current going for a few seconds (and keep the propane valve open and the engine running)until the genset's +12v comes online?

Regards,
John

[professor95]

The frame should be grounded. There is suppose to be a green wire bonding wire from the alternator to the frame.

[jlaustin]

I've been working on the LPG solenoid valve installation and changing the manual (key) and remote starter over to cutting off the propane rather than the engine's coil. I worked up a design where the starter will trigger a latching relay that will open the propane solenoid valve. I'm going to install another relay that the key or the remote starter can activate to release the latched relay and close the valve for shut-down.

I was initially very disappointed when my latching relay idea didn't work! I went over-and-over and couldn't find a flaw in my plan. THEN, I discovered that since I had mounted the SPDT relays on the frame, I had utilized some of the mounting screws to secure grounding lugs. Only problem is THE FRAME ISN'T GROUNDED TO THE ENGINE OR GENERATOR!!! Once I grounded the frame to the engine, the relay and solenoid worked perfectly.

Question: The genset rides on rubber vibration mounts and that insulates it from the frame. Is there any harm in grounding the frame to the engine?

Regards,
John