3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Wardo]

wheeldo wrote:
I've read much of this thread but have to ask-where can I find the Champion other than Cabela's?

I'm in Southern California and they sell the Champion 7000W at Costco but I can't find the 3000W anywhere.

Would be nice to have gotten in on the $300 deal but at this point I'm just trying to find one locally. Thanks for any pointers!

Advance Auto Supply has them for $299, need to order online, but they will ship to local store at no cost.

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:

professor95 wrote:
Personally, I would replace the one shot fuses from the battery to the camper with same size automatic resting circuit breakers like the ones used on your vehicle headlights, backed up by a fuse or fuseable link that is rated about 10 amps higher.

Connecting to the converter sounds logical (and does save 10' of wire!) ... would a 30 amp breaker backed by a 40 amp fuse be enough (between battery and converter) or would you go to a 40 amp breaker and 50 amp fuse?
Regards,
John

John,

Seems like I am always saying "depends"

I have seen battery to converter wiring as small as 10 AWG copper and as large as 4 AWG copper. The size of this interconnection is a consideration of cost, the size of the charger/converter and the typical current demand of the camper from the batteries when it is NOT plugged into shore power.

Soooo...... first thing to determine is the gauge of cable from the battery to converter. If it should be 10 gauge, the maximum size fuse would be 30 amps. #8 AWG would be 40 amps, #6 is 55 amps and #4 is 70 amps. These amperage ratings are for copper wire with type TW insulation rated for 140 degrees F. Higher amperage is allowed for copper with 167 degree F insulation but it is advised NOT to exceed the lower ratings with 12 VDC systems due to a higher percentage of voltage drop.

The self resetting circuit breakers are great little devices, but if a cable short or excessively high current situation should develop they may not react fast enough to keep a wire from melting. Additionally, if they constantly "cycle" due to an overload it is possible to overheat the supply wire since adequate cooling time may not be present.

This is the reason I like to see a larger one-shot fuse behind a self resetting circuit breaker. For my purposes I elect to use the current rating of cable (wire) equal to the open air rating of the same size copper cable, which is: #10 = 40 amps; #8 = 60 amps; #6 = 80 amps; #4 = 105 amps. Be forewarned, these ratings are to protect the cable and reduce the possibility of fire -- they are not there to protect the device they connect to. Individual device current tolerances will vary. Check the data sheet for the device to see what size over current protection is needed for it's protection.

Obtaining fuses or holders over 30 amps for 12 VDC automotive holders or systems can get expensive or be hard to find. For this reason "fuseable links" are often used in place of removable fuses. A fuseable link is a short section of a smaller gauge wire inserted in the cable near the power source. The link offers additional resistance and marginal voltage drop at maximum current. As current increases, the wire in the link provides more resistance which drops voltage to the device in a linear fashion. At some point the link will destruct due to too much current (heat) and open the circuit just like a fuse. Downside is the link itself can be a fire hazard if placed in a location where it can cause adjoining materials to ignite. They are best placed in "free air" or an enclosed fire proof box. Commercial fuseable links have a non-flammable type of insulation.

I generally make my own links, but the safest and most effective way for you to get a proper sized fuseable link is to go to a "real" auto parts supply, like a NAPA, and ask for a 30 amp rated fuseable link. If the clerk wants a make and model of car tell him you have none and want to look up link ratings in the "paper" catalog. Hopefully he will comply and you can quickly find links of most any rating. They are MUCH LESS expensive than high current fuses and holders.

If you go here you will learn more than you ever probably wanted to know about low voltage (automotive type) over current protection devices.

I hope this has helped!

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:
Personally, I would replace the one shot fuses from the battery to the camper with same size automatic resting circuit breakers like the ones used on your vehicle headlights, backed up by a fuse or fuseable link that is rated about 10 amps higher.

Connecting to the converter sounds logical (and does save 10' of wire!) ... would a 30 amp breaker backed by a 40 amp fuse be enough (between battery and converter) or would you go to a 40 amp breaker and 50 amp fuse?
Regards,
John

[professor95]

beardedone wrote:
I bought one of these Canadian models also. Without reading 825 pages can someone tell me the pros & cons of bonding, but in a nutshell please? thanks

There are fewer pages to read on this thread, which goes into a lot of detail and presents both argument for and against neutral bonding. BTW, if you are unfamiliar with this issue, "Bonding" is designating one side of the AC circuit on the generator output as neutral and then physically connecting it to the grounding circuit which includes the generator frame, RV frame and all metal parts and ground for the RV DC circuits. This means everything connected to the generator will be at AC voltage potential.

CSA Standards (Canadian) require all portable generators no matter what the wattage is to be bonded. It is not required for USA models of synchronous Chinese built portable generators in the 3,000 watt class and most do NOT bond the neutral on their smaller wattage portable models. One exception is the Champion sold by Home Depot. HD specifications require the generator built for them to be bonded.

Please understand that there are many arguments for and against bonding a portable generator for RV use. RV's do not come under OSHA requirements so don't let their rules for larger wattage commercial generators be your guide.

Bottom line -- a bonded generator "may" cause a circuit breaker to kick if there is a direct short from hot to ground in an appliance, but bonding also presents a risk of electrical shock that will not blow a thermal circuit breaker common to many portable Chinese generators when one touches earth and any metal part of the camper. There are a lot of "depends" here, but overall I am in favor of NOT bonding when using a 3,000 watt class Chinese synchronous generator with a RV. But at the same time I am a strong advocate of using Ground Fault Circuit Protection with your RV connection. 30 amp GFCI units for RV's are available for less than $100 and offer some of the best life insurance you can buy for the money - bonded or unbonded!

Keep in mind my opinions are based on 30+ years as a RV'er, Master Electrician, Electrical Engineer and Professor teaching higher education credit courses in Electrical Engineering. I'm not just some dude quoting what I might have read somewhere or heard from Uncle Bob's cousin's friend 🙂

[professor95]

After a long, long wait it finally looks like we are going to have available the electric start RV model Champion that includes a remote control start and stop. The remote is said to be totally awesome and work over a considerable distance (300+ feet). Yes, you can select channels so as to not start all the similar generators in range.

The catch is it will initially be available only to COSTCO members on-line beginning in June (maybe earlier?).

I have no idea what the cost or shipping will be, but I am told the price of the generator will be "extremely attractive".

Hallelujah !!!

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:

I "think" in the battery compartment of the fifth wheel there is a 30 amp fuse between the battery and the remainder of the electrical system. Would it be OK to incorporate that fuse into the starter wire circuit, or would the load be too close to the limits of the fuse and blow it, especially if other loads are energized in the trailer?
Alternatively, I could run the starter cable directly from the battery to the genset and put another ? 30 amp? fuse in-line near the battery?

Regards,
John

It should be fine to use it as an over current protection device as long as you are not running all the other 12 VDC accessories in the camper with the converter off at the same time. It would also need to be a slow-blow or time delay type fuse/breaker. The locked rotor current of the starter is high enough to quickly blow a conventional fast-blow fuse when you hit the start button. Personally, I would replace the one shot fuses from the battery to the camper with same size automatic resting circuit breakers like the ones used on your vehicle headlights, backed up by a fuse or fuseable link that is rated about 10 amps higher.

If you do this, you could even tap the 12 VDC wire from the converter to the battery and perhaps save some wire to the generator. No need to run a negative wire, just use the RV frame as the neutral. One caution: If your generator has a neutral to frame (ground) bond REMOVE IT before connecting to the RV battery negative post or conductor. You do not want the RV frame to become a "hot" part of an AC circuit without the benefit of a proper grounding connection.

The additional fuse or CB for the starter would be OK too.

[gasser9]

The outlet in the down position was usually good for 2,000 gallon or so of lp in 5KV Onans, before they needed rebuilding. Of course the engine needed work by then too. That is the way we always mounted the big ones(300-400 horsepower Continuous)it made sense to us anyway.

[bobandcat]

I'm looking for a new home for these meters.



The digital meter is a Champion tri-digital meter for your generator that displays engine hours, generator hertz and voltage. The analog meter is just a plug in voltage meter that I used to have in an outlet in my RV kitchen to monitor generator or campground line voltage.

If anyone is interested in these, send me a private message.

[jlaustin]

gasser9 wrote:
The vaccum line also has to supply fuel to the engine at full load so the line has to be large enough for that part of the start/run sequence. You do not want to starve the engine it is really bad for the exaust valves!
Garretson/Impco suggests that the regulator be mounted vertical with the outlet at the bottom is to allow the impuritied that are"cracked out of the fuel to pass out of the regulators "seat" area. This will cause the seat to leak fuel. The regulator can be mounted on its back but it will usually have to be readjusted (the bubble on the outlet) just remember to keep the outlet down as much as possible.

Now you've really got me confused!

Here's what Matt at PNG Technologies (maker of my regulator) said:

John,
The regulator has to be mounted at the 12 o'clock position where the outlet is at 12 o'clock. Also, the 4 and 8 o'clock are air vents and it is not recommended to bolt either one for mounting purposes.

Matt

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the outlet should be at 6 o'clock, not 12???

Regards,
John

[gasser9]

The vaccum line also has to supply fuel to the engine at full load so the line has to be large enough for that part of the start/run sequence. You do not want to starve the engine it is really bad for the exaust valves!
Garretson/Impco suggests that the regulator be mounted vertical with the outlet at the bottom is to allow the impuritied that are"cracked out of the fuel to pass out of the regulators "seat" area. This will cause the seat to leak fuel. The regulator can be mounted on its back but it will usually have to be readjusted (the bubble on the outlet) just remember to keep the outlet down as much as possible.

[jlaustin]

toprudder wrote:


One way to make it safer would be to install a breaker or some type of current protection on each conductor. This is essentially what is done in the gen heads when the two windings are in parallel.

I "think" in the battery compartment of the fifth wheel there is a 30 amp fuse between the battery and the remainder of the electrical system. Would it be OK to incorporate that fuse into the starter wire circuit, or would the load be too close to the limits of the fuse and blow it, especially if other loads are energized in the trailer?
Alternatively, I could run the starter cable directly from the battery to the genset and put another ? 30 amp? fuse in-line near the battery?

Regards,
John

[toprudder]

snarfattack wrote:
I just want to make sure readers will understand the risks of using two wires for one circuit, and when that risk is acceptable.

That was a good point. I agree with Prof that in this application it is less risk.

One way to make it safer would be to install a breaker or some type of current protection on each conductor. This is essentially what is done in the gen heads when the two windings are in parallel.

[beardedone]

I bought one of these Canadian models also. Without reading 825 pages can someone tell me the pros & cons of bonding, but in a nutshell please? thanks

[professor95]

Happy_Waver wrote:
I picked up my Champion 3000/3500 at Costco here in Canada. If you keep any eye open on their coupons you can get a good deal. Not only was it on sale but they gave me another 75 bucks off at the door

By purchasing the CSA model in Canada, you also have a generator with the updated alternator and the lowest distortion of any Chinese synchronous 3,000 watt class generator -- period! Yes, the models for Canada sales have a "cleaner" waveform than the US counterparts.

Also be aware that unlike most of the models sold in the US, the Canadian model does have the neutral bonded to the generator frame. You may want to update yourself on the pros and cons of bonding on a small (3,500 watt) portable generator for use with a RV. My personal preference is NOT to have the bond for RV use.

[jasult]

Happy_Waver wrote:
I picked up my Champion 3000/3500 at Costco here in Canada. If you keep any eye open on their coupons you can get a good deal. Not only was it on sale but they gave me another 75 bucks off at the door

How does it perform?
Is it more or less noisey than expected
I am considering one