3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

dcs1968 wrote:
Thanks for the info, this is all helpful stuff. Someone mentioned that you only get reduced power output through the duplex plugs. I plugged my HTT into the gen using a 30amp to 15amp adapter and I was able to run the a/c on full blast while running the microwave. I had to do this as the other plug is of the 4 prong variety. I would like to put a 30amp plug in its place. Has anyone done this mod? I only boondock a handful of times a year, the rest of the time its campgrounds w/hookups. I just want to make boondocking as painless for my wife as possible, she hates having to conserve battery power.:W

If you checked the temperature of the adapter at the 15 amp end, you would have found it very hot. I have seen the plastic insulation melt on those things when run over their rating!

As for adding the 30 amp TT outlet - it is no problem and has reportedly been done by several owners. You do have to enlarge the hole for the TT outlet to fit, which is a grind or file job. If you get it out-of-round you can always add a stainless steel cover plate. Also, keep in mind you will loose the ability to have 220 if you replace the twist lock outlet. No big deal if you are using it only for an RV. Another option is to add a PVC box with a TT outlet to the side of the frame and wire it with at least #12 AWG stranded copper from the existing 120 wiring.

[hugemoth]

That's correct. You have to buy another $35 replacement warranty for the new one if you want to keep it up. Still a good deal for my situation. Total cost including the warranty was under $200 which was less than the other brands without the warranty.

Q




True. But, be aware it is a ONE TIME replacement during that period. Meaning it is not a 2 year warranty where there may be multiple replacements if needed.

I learned this the "hard way" with a HF MIG welder after the replacement went south.

[professor95]

bobandcat wrote:
Here are a couple of pics of the unit in my 5ver.

TOTLLY AWSOME!!!

If you previously posted those photos, I missed them. I really like the way you used the squirrel cage blower and vented the battery boxes.

Please repost the temperature graphs. I remember them, but do not know where they are.

[professor95]

Salvo wrote:
Found why my generator smelled of gas. It appears the rubber gasket around the gas cap doesn't make a good seal. The gas smell is coming from the cap. Not sure, if you turn the tank upside down, does gas leak out?

Did some temperature testing. The Yamaha 2800 does get toasty. I loaded the gen with a 1500W heater.

The ambient temp = 54 F.
The hottest spot, close to the spark plug = 117 F.
The hot air being blown out the side = 104 F.

If I want to run the gen at 100 F ambient, then the temperature measurements get increased by (100-54)= 46 F.

That means the hottest spot = 117 + 46 = 163 F, and the hot air temp becomes 150 F.

That seems cutting it a bit close to install a 165 F thermal switch; even for the air temp location with a 15 F margin. What does that tell us? If you got a 165 F thermal switch, don't run gen when it's 100 F outside? How much safety margin do you guys have?

Sal

While your calculations may appear accurate, at higher ambient temperatures the ability to remove heat from the generator is reduced. Thus, it will run even hotter than your calculations at 100 degrees F outside.

Load is another factor. The harder the generator is working, the more heat it will produce.

I do not have a temperature recomendation from a manufacturer. My concern is not for the engine, as they can withstand air temperatures well over 200 degres F if you use a top quality oil.

I derived at the 194 degree F rating for the type of wire (THWN) used in the genny as the absolute limit. I prefer to drop back to the 167 degree F rating for THWN to be on the safe side. Also consider that as a wire gets hotter, resistance goes up. For example, #12 AWG copper is rated at 617 feet per ohm at 77 degrees, then rises to 534 feet per ohm at 149 degrees. That may not sound like much, but when you consider the amount of copper wire in the generator windings it begins to make a difference.

BTW - all the power ratings and performance data on the Chinese 3,000 watt class open frame generators is given at a maximum ambient temperature of 85 degrees F. Thus, the 3,500 watt output rating of a 36540 CPE is not realistic at 100 degrees. Again, by my seat-of-the-pants calculations you should reduce power by 2% for every degree above 85. So, at 100 dgrees you should back off on power (load) at least 30%, or to no more than 2,450 watts for a 3,500 watt rated genny.

Once more - these are MY calculations, not the manufacturer's. It is what I have determined to be safe operating values. Some one else may have a different belief.

On the fuel tank..... most all of these gennys, my Kipor included, must have a vented cap to work. If there is no vent, gas flow will stop. On the Chinese 3,000 watt class open frame models the tank WILL leak if sloshed around. The fix is to NOT fill it completely full so the baffel in the tank neck will keep fuel from splashing out. On my Kipor, there is a open and closed valve for the cap vent. Thus, it can be sealed for transport.

[professor95]

hugemoth wrote:
I've only had to order a couple parts for Harbor Freight tools, a drill press chuck and a belt. Both were cheap and were shipped quickly although they are common parts. One of the reasons I bought the generator at HF is the $35 2 year replacement warranty. If it fails to work for any reason during those 2 years they will replace it with a new one.

Q

True. But, be aware it is a ONE TIME replacement during that period. Meaning it is not a 2 year warranty where there may be multiple replacements if needed.

I learned this the "hard way" with a HF MIG welder after the replacement went south.

[cdre]

professor95 wrote:

cdre wrote:
Regarding the pickup bed hoists, I bought one at harbor freight and had a subframe welded up to through bolt it to. Subframe was basically two 1/4" plates welded at a 90 degree angle with some long gussets. (snip)

Will it fold down out of the way for use with a fifth wheel hitch?

Can it lift a fifth wheel hitch in and out of the bed of a truck?

Can it lift a 100# generator into the bed of the truck?

Can it be easily removed?

It would rest along the side of the bed rails... I mounted mine on the driver side. I always man-handled my 5th wheel hitch into my truck, but it definitely could have done the job. I just moved it to the side when I towed. It could be removed, but the pivot/anchor post remained bolted to the frame (through the bed). This basically consisted of a section of tube about 4" in diameter and about 12" high. Neatly behind wheel well, so it really didn't get in the way.

[bobandcat]

These generators have a vented gas cap to allow for the gravity flow of gasoline to the carb. Therefore, gasoline fumes will be released through the gas cap.

I'm using a thermal switch (Granger p/n 2FBT5) to shut my generator down if it starts to overheat. The switch has a 40 degree adjustment range. You can set it as low as 140 and as high as 180 degrees.

I have tested my generator at 100 degree ambient and I do use it at that ambient temp in AZ to run my AC. My only limitation when running at the high ambient is not being able to operate both the AC and the microwave at the same time. Check my earlier post for temperature graphs and enclosure construction pics. Here are a couple of pics of the unit in my 5ver.

[Salvo]

Found why my generator smelled of gas. It appears the rubber gasket around the gas cap doesn't make a good seal. The gas smell is coming from the cap. Not sure, if you turn the tank upside down, does gas leak out?

Did some temperature testing. The Yamaha 2800 does get toasty. I loaded the gen with a 1500W heater.

The ambient temp = 54 F.
The hottest spot, close to the spark plug = 117 F.
The hot air being blown out the side = 104 F.

If I want to run the gen at 100 F ambient, then the temperature measurements get increased by (100-54)= 46 F.

That means the hottest spot = 117 + 46 = 163 F, and the hot air temp becomes 150 F.

That seems cutting it a bit close to install a 165 F thermal switch; even for the air temp location with a 15 F margin. What does that tell us? If you got a 165 F thermal switch, don't run gen when it's 100 F outside? How much safety margin do you guys have?

Sal

[dcs1968]

Thanks for the info, this is all helpful stuff. Someone mentioned that you only get reduced power output through the duplex plugs. I plugged my HTT into the gen using a 30amp to 15amp adapter and I was able to run the a/c on full blast while running the microwave. I had to do this as the other plug is of the 4 prong variety. I would like to put a 30amp plug in its place. Has anyone done this mod? I only boondock a handful of times a year, the rest of the time its campgrounds w/hookups. I just want to make boondocking as painless for my wife as possible, she hates having to conserve battery power.:W

[hugemoth]

I've only had to order a couple parts for Harbor Freight tools, a drill press chuck and a belt. Both were cheap and were shipped quickly although they are common parts. One of the reasons I bought the generator at HF is the $35 2 year replacement warranty. If it fails to work for any reason during those 2 years they will replace it with a new one.

Q

[professor95]

saycheese wrote:


Part of why I went with the Champion is because it comes with an RV-specific 30A outlet. From what I've read, plugging into one 15A outlet gets you 15 amps.

Actually, on his model, when he selects 120 volts out the two circuit breakers are put in parallel allowing up to 30 amps before a trip. The duplex outlets are rated for up to 20 amps, but unless the outlet has been updated, will not accept a 20 amp T style plug and thus are useable only with 15 amp plugs (caps). Any of the available dogbone type adapters are only rated for 15 amps - even if the other end is a 30 amp TT outlet.

Care must be taken when using adapters and sub rated (below 30 A) outlets on these models. As you noted - having the wired 30 amp TT outlet is an obvious plus if you are running an RV.

[professor95]

dcs1968 wrote:
I purchased a Chicago Electric 3500W Model 96898 through Harbor Freight tools for $299 about 3 months ago. (snip) I as wondering if anyone else has picked up this generator and what their experiences were.

Thanks

The generator is made by Jiang Dong, one of China's largest (if not the largest) small engine builders. The CE model you have is sold under many different names by outlets like Harbor Freight, Cummings Tools, Homier, etc. It has one of the Honda GX200 engine clones.

With care, they should give you many, many hours of good service. The only downside is the lack of a good, reliable parts supplier and warranty service provider. Harbor Freight can supply many parts, but they are often a little slow on getting them and then getting them to you. Hope this info helps.

[hugemoth]

I have one of the little 1000W Harbor Freight generators which works great. I'm using it right now to charge the house batteries in my solar powered home because of zero sun for a few days. Pretty quiet, starts easy, fuel efficient, easily runs a 40 amp battery charger which is pretty much it's sole purpose.

Q

dcs1968 wrote:
I purchased a Chicago Electric 3500W Model 96898 through Harbor Freight tools for $299 about 3 months ago. The first real test run was a weekend camping trip to Joshua Tree National Park. It ran flawlessly, and it was not too loud when running with my homemade encloser while in the back of my truck, you could almost not hear it while in my HTT with tent ends. It has (2) 15 amp outlets and (1) 4 prong 120/240 outlet. I have plugged my HTT into the 15amp outlet using an adapter and have been able to run the A/C and micro at the same time so I am assuming that I get full power to the outlets. I as wondering if anyone else has picked up this generator and what their experiences were.

Thanks

[saycheese]

dcs1968 wrote:
It has (2) 15 amp outlets and (1) 4 prong 120/240 outlet. I have plugged my HTT into the 15amp outlet using an adapter and have been able to run the A/C and micro at the same time so I am assuming that I get full power to the outlets.

Part of why I went with the Champion is because it comes with an RV-specific 30A outlet. From what I've read, plugging into one 15A outlet gets you 15 amps.

[dcs1968]

I purchased a Chicago Electric 3500W Model 96898 through Harbor Freight tools for $299 about 3 months ago. The first real test run was a weekend camping trip to Joshua Tree National Park. It ran flawlessly, and it was not too loud when running with my homemade encloser while in the back of my truck, you could almost not hear it while in my HTT with tent ends. It has (2) 15 amp outlets and (1) 4 prong 120/240 outlet. I have plugged my HTT into the 15amp outlet using an adapter and have been able to run the A/C and micro at the same time so I am assuming that I get full power to the outlets. I as wondering if anyone else has picked up this generator and what their experiences were.

Thanks