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3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy


For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โ€œcloningโ€ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โ€œrunningโ€ display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โ€œSupposedlyโ€ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โ€œabove average qualityโ€ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โ€œavailability listingโ€.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ€“ most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โ€œreasonablyโ€ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โ€œlook alikeโ€ eng...






















Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.
10,029 REPLIES 10,029

LVJJJ
Explorer
Explorer
Fired up the little 1500 watter, it ran good, tried air conditioning fan, it worked, TV it worked, microwave (900w) it didn't. The front panel of the MW went crazy, but luckilly it still worked when I went back to shore power. I did notice that the light inside the mw flickered when genny was running, mw was not on and door was open. Do I need to plug mw directly into genny to get it to work? Is coverter/battery charging taking up too much power?
1994 GMC Suburban K1500
2005 Trail Cruiser TC26QBC
1965 CHEVY VAN, 292 "Big Block 6" (will still tow)
2008 HHR
L(Larry)V(Vicki)J(Jennifer)J(Jesse)J(Jason)

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
here you go, click link

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&prodid=11217701&ec=BC-EC877-CatHome&pos=15...

3800 watts of power from an inverter genset, nice, but i don't think it will fit in my RV genny compartment
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

bobandcat
Explorer
Explorer
I know this isn't a 3000 watt Chinese genset, but it is probably Chinese built. Check out this offer from Costco.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&prodid=11217701&ec=BC-EC877-CatHome&pos=15โŒฉ=en-US#shipinfo

If I was just starting my generator quest, I would probably buy this ONAN 4300 watt electric start inverter genset rated at 62 dBA for only $1300.
Bob and Cathy
2002 Montana 3655FL
2006 Chevy 2500HD Duramax/Allison
PullRite 16k Superglide

bobandcat
Explorer
Explorer
Professor95 & MrWizard,

Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, I didnโ€™t have the space to use the glass door from the microwave. Interesting idea though!

I hope that someone takes the time to answer my genhead temp request. This has been a fun quest for me. It helps fill the need to use my engineering skills during retirement.

As you may remember, my first enclosure completed about 2 ยฝ years ago was just an aluminum case with noise absorption matting on the interior walls and an open bottom. This worked fine for my 3 month Alaskan adventure in a cool climate where A/C wasnโ€™t necessary very much.

When I return back to AZ, I added an automatic transfer switch and a small cooling exhaust fan to the top of the enclosure. That fan was very inadequate and is now re-purposed into the booster cooling fan for the genhead.

My next iteration added the 300 cfm exhaust fan to the side of the enclosure. It worked very well, but I was still concerned that the AVR & genhead werenโ€™t getting enough cool air and hot air re-circulation wasnโ€™t controlled with the bottom still completely open. Of course, the gas tank was still in the enclosure and was also a concern.

That led me to the latest design detailed in this forum. This will probably be the last enclosure design for the generator except for the improvements noted. It meets my 5ver electrical needs in the AZ climate.
Bob and Cathy
2002 Montana 3655FL
2006 Chevy 2500HD Duramax/Allison
PullRite 16k Superglide

toprudder
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
i don't think there ever will be a 2-stroke with CARB approval , unless it is made with an alloy engine that will seize up, unless pure synthetic injector oil is used. AND that possibility seems unlikely

pure synthetic burns clean with NO little to NO hydro carbon emission

cheaper weeder oil has natural oil in it.

I said "Probably can be done". As you pointed out, there is a difference between what is possible and what is practical. I think that is why four-stroke powerheads for weedeaters are coming onto the market.

FWIW, I own a few four-stroke engines (model airplanes) that use pre-mix (methanol based) fuel and don't have crankcase oil. I also have a 50cc two-stroke gasoline engine that burns 100:1 synthetic mix. The later burns much cleaner with no perceptible smoke or exhaust smell. But, it also costs $600 just for the engine.
Bob, Martha, and Matt.
Tucker, the Toy Poodle
'09 K-Z MXT20, '07 Chevy 2500HD Duramax

Toprudder.com

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
excellent work..

I echo everything randy said
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
bobandcat wrote:
The following describes my latest enclosure. It incorporates some of the ideas of Brad, Professor Randy, Floyd and others who have contributed their knowledge on enclosures. I posted a sketch of my design on Bradโ€™s enclosure forum about 6 months ago....... (snip)


Extremely well done! A very innovative approach to taking what Brad, Floyd and I have done (others too) and expanding it along with your new ideas into an excellent project. Now, as I prepare to start all over again with the genny install into the new fiver, you have given me new ideas to consider for my coming efforts.

What I found amusing was the use of the microwave enclosure. You see, just yesterday I was playing with an unneeded case from a window air conditioner (similar to the microwave case) to see if it could work as part of an enclosure. Unfortunately, it was not quite large enough. As you know, I am a great fan of "repurposing". I will share though I am curious as to why you did not use the glass see-thru door as your front panel :h ;).

I was especially impressed by your graphs and collection of data to establish the authenticity of your work. Your sheet metal fabrication looked pretty darn good for someone without a slip roll, press brake and shear.

You are a smart feller, Bob - no doubt about it! Thank you for sharing with us.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

bobandcat
Explorer
Explorer
The following describes my latest enclosure. It incorporates some of the ideas of Brad, Professor Randy, Floyd and others who have contributed their knowledge on enclosures. I posted a sketch of my design on Bradโ€™s enclosure forum about 6 months ago. Materials were โ€œre-purposedโ€ as much as possible while building this iteration. It has been in use for the last couple of months. I concluded that this enclosure was good to about 100 degrees ambient at 2000 watts generator output. This is enough to run my 5verโ€™s 15k BTU A/C unit. At this ambient temperature, it is necessary to shut the AC off to run the microwave. The combination of the two requires about 3200 watts. Testing showed that my Champion genset reached its maximum output of 2900 watts at 100 degrees ambient. Running both loads together resulted in the engine rpm lugging down and the voltage dropping from 120v to 103v. Frequency also was reduced due to the loss of engine rpm but was not measured.

Now, the disclaimer:
THIS ENCLOSURE WAS BUILT SOLELY FOR THE USE OF THE WRITER. OTHERS WHO ATTEMPT TO BUILD A SIMILAR ENCLOSURE DO SO AT THEIR OWN RISK. VARIATIONS IN THE DESIGN AND USE OF THE ENCLOSURE INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO AIRFLOW, GENERATOR LOAD, AMBIENT TEMPERATURE, ALTITUDE, EXHAUST TEMPS, AND NOISE ABATEMENT WILL AFFECT THE ABILITY OF THE ENCLOSURE TO SAFELY HOUSE THE GENERATOR.

The main reason for this latest iteration was to move the gas tank out of the enclosure and have it located in a lower temperature environment. Last winter my wifeโ€™s microwave oven decided to quit working. I disassembled the corpse for useful parts. The outer housing was steel measuring 25โ€ long, 17โ€ deep and 14โ€ high or just the right size to house the engine and generator head of my Champion genset. The fuel tank and control panel were raised 6โ€ to allow clearance to the top of the new enclosure. Miscellaneous openings in the rear panel of the re-purposed microwave housing were covered with metal foil tape except for one opening located below of the engine air cleaner inlet to allow intake of cool engine combustion air.

The fuel hose and electrical wiring were routed through the rear panel of the enclosure. The rear panel separates from the rest of the enclosure and stays with the generator when the enclosure is removed. This allows for quick removal of the enclosure for any work needed on the genset or to operate the generator without the enclosure. With the enclosure installed, the front enclosure panel slides sideways to allow for checking the oil, operating the choke and using the recoil starter.

To improve airflow and reduce cooling air re-circulation, the bottom of the enclosure was closed and air intake ducts were fabricated for the engine and generator head. The generator head duct inlet also had a booster fan incorporated to improve the cooling airflow through the generator head. Tests confirmed that the 300 cfm exhaust fan produced a negative pressure inside of the enclosure. Enclosure openings and clearance slots were sealed to force almost all of the air to enter through the cooling air ducts except for the air cleaner intake air opening in the rear of the enclosure.

The exhaust piping inside the compartment was insulated with high temp fiberglass insulation re-purposed from an oven to reduce heat load in the compartment. The muffler was insulated and wrapped to reduce heat transfer and noise. A piece of 1/4โ€ thick hardbacker board was added between the insulated exhaust pipe and the genhead to reduce the exhaust heat load on the generator windings.

Tests were conducted to measure the capabilities of this enclosure. These were completed at an average ambient temperature of 98 degrees at 1470 feet above sea level. The unit was in a shaded environment to eliminate sun load, which in Arizona can add 30 degrees to the surface temperature of an enclosure or fuel tank. Electrical loads were 2600 watts and 1600 watts for the first test and 2200 watts for the second test.

During the first test, the generator ran for 30 minutes at 2600 watts before it started to stumble. The load was immediately and arbitrarily reduced to 1600 watts by turning off the leaf blower and leaving the air compressor load running. The test continued for another 30 minutes without any further problems with the maximum temperatures dropping and stabilizing. At 1600 watts, the air temp above the engine stabilized at 160 degrees, above the genhead at 140 degrees and enclosure exit air at 150 degrees. Test time was 60 minutes under load, 15 minutes running with cooling fans load (110watts) and 15 minutes with the engine off and cooling fans running. Enclosure cooling was extremely effective after the engine was stopped and the cooling fans continued running.

The second test was completed at an electrical load of 2200 watts. It was terminated after temps were stable for 4 consecutive readings taken at 5-minute intervals. Total test time was 45 minutes under load and 15 minutes for cool down with the engine off and the enclosure cooling fans running. The stabilized engine air, genhead air and exiting air temperatures were 156, 145 and 152 degrees respectively measured in the same locations as the first test.

The fuel tank temperature after the tests was between 110 and 118 degrees. Under direct sun load, it would have been in the 140 degrees range and probably 150 degrees if it was still mounted inside of the generator enclosure.

Temperature graphs and other data from the tests are included along with the pictures. The pictures were taken while the generator and enclosure were mounted on a temporary test stand base.

This design was a success for me in that it allowed me to operate my RV air conditioning at 100 degrees ambient with the enclosed generator. At a 75-80 degree ambient, both the A/C and the microwave can be run together for short periods probably due to reduced air conditioning power requirement and increased generator output. The maximum electrical load at high ambient temps should be limited to about 1800-2000 watts. My 5verโ€™s A/C and enclosure cooling fans use about 1800 watts at 100 degrees ambient. Of course, the refrigerator and hot water tank are on propane and the battery charger is turned off while the generator is being used for the A/C at high ambient temperatures.

Someone may have noticed that I continue to run the 120v cooling fans after stopping the generator. This is accomplished by using a 2500-watt inverter and RV batteries. The inverter is wired into the generator control panel. The 3 way toggle switch on the panel acts as a transfer switch with one position for the 120v generator, center position off, and the other position for the 110v inverter. This also allows me to use the inverter to run the microwave and entertainment system in the RV through the same wiring that the generator uses.

Sound reduction was not a priority with this enclosure. I am satisfied that it is in the low 60โ€™s dBA (by subjective evaluation). If I would try to lower the noise level further, I would add ยผโ€ thick hardbacker to all of the enclosureโ€™s surfaces. This would add about 20 lbs. to the enclosure.

Future improvements will include a 160-degree enclosure air temp automatic generator shut down switch and improved exhaust piping temperature insulation. Brad noted that his exhaust pipe insulation was cool enough to touch. Mine isnโ€™t. If I can get the insulation surface temperature cool enough (like Bradโ€™s), I will remove the hardbacker heat barrier between the exhaust and the genhead.

Finally, I will consider switching to a dual fuel system of propane and gasoline following Professor Randyโ€™s instructions in his propane conversion thread.

Now, here is a request for temperature data.
The generator head temperatures were measured during the second test just after the 2200-watt load was removed. The temperature was a respectable 123 degrees near the AVR but 190 degrees on the sheet metal windings cover near the top of the genhead by the long mounting bolt on the exhaust side of the genhead.

I am requesting that forum readers with the Champion 3500 watt generator in its original factory configuration measure the temperature of their genhead at this same location (see picture for the exact location) after about 30 minutes of operation and either send their temp info to me in a PM or just report it in this forum.

I would like to confirm that the 190-degree temp at this location is typical of the OEM configuration due to both the engine and muffler heat load on the genhead. If this temp is not typical, I will address the exhaust pipe insulation improvement soon.



2600/1600 WATT DATA


2200 WATT DATA


GENERATOR OVERVIEW


COOLING EXHAUST FAN


FUEL TANK ROTATED


BACK OF ENCLOSURE


HOT AIR EXIT (ORANGE)


EXHAUST PIPE INSULATION


ENGINE AIR INTAKE DUCT


DUCT MOUNTING


GENHEAD AIR INTAKE DUCT


GENHEAD AUXILIARY COOLING FAN


GENHEAD HEAT SHIELD
Bob and Cathy
2002 Montana 3655FL
2006 Chevy 2500HD Duramax/Allison
PullRite 16k Superglide

LVJJJ
Explorer
Explorer
To professor95, whilst reading the manual for the 42412, it says it shouldn't be used for charging deep cycle batteries, that true?
1994 GMC Suburban K1500
2005 Trail Cruiser TC26QBC
1965 CHEVY VAN, 292 "Big Block 6" (will still tow)
2008 HHR
L(Larry)V(Vicki)J(Jennifer)J(Jesse)J(Jason)

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
i've lost track of model numbers, but assuming your talking about the little 1220-1500 watt model

charge batteries NO problem, it will even run a small MW provided your not using to much power for the converter-charger

or run your coffee maker, electric drill etc.

I used one for a year, they are good little gennies
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

LVJJJ
Explorer
Explorer
Following the the perfessor's advice, I walked into a local Schucks last nite, and bought a Champion 42412 for $199.
Those of you who have a 42412, what RV appliances are you able to run with it? We mainly got it to keep our 2 6volt batteries charged while drycamping. (I'm assuming it will charge batteries)?

Larry
2005 Roadtrek 170
2006 Rainier travel trailer
1965 Chevy Van
2008 HHR
1994 GMC Suburban K1500
2005 Trail Cruiser TC26QBC
1965 CHEVY VAN, 292 "Big Block 6" (will still tow)
2008 HHR
L(Larry)V(Vicki)J(Jennifer)J(Jesse)J(Jason)

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
i don't think there ever will be a 2-stroke with CARB approval , unless it is made with an alloy engine that will seize up, unless pure synthetic injector oil is used. AND that possibility seems unlikely

pure synthetic burns clean with NO little to NO hydro carbon emission

cheaper weeder oil has natural oil in it.
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

toprudder
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
I have not seen a 2-stroke that is EPA or NPS (fire arrestor) approved. Definately not CARB approved. This does not mean they do not exist, but I have not noted that certification.

Probably can be done, but there seems to be a push to get 4 stroke engines on things such as weedeaters and outboard engines. In fact, I just tested a 4 stroke weedeater today.

Bob R.
Bob, Martha, and Matt.
Tucker, the Toy Poodle
'09 K-Z MXT20, '07 Chevy 2500HD Duramax

Toprudder.com

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
I know somebody with one of those $99 2-stroke units from pepboys

its 'quieter' yeah less noise than my 3500 champion

the new versions are NOT bad.. and if you use 2 stroke motorcycle injector oil, instead of cheaper weed eater oil, they also make less smoke than '2 strokes' of old

I still prefer 4 stroke engines for gennies , But like other things, they have improved

any 2 stroke that is allowed to sit for long periods so that the volatile part of the fuel mix evaporates, is going to be harder to start, but if used reguraly and put away with a clean dry carb, they will not give you problems


I have not seen a 2-stroke that is EPA or NPS (fire arrestor) approved. Definately not CARB approved. This does not mean they do not exist, but I have not noted that certification.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
I know somebody with one of those $99 2-stroke units from pepboys

its 'quieter' yeah less noise than my 3500 champion

the new versions are NOT bad.. and if you use 2 stroke motorcycle injector oil, instead of cheaper weed eater oil, they also make less smoke than '2 strokes' of old

I still prefer 4 stroke engines for gennies , But like other things, they have improved

any 2 stroke that is allowed to sit for long periods so that the volatile part of the fuel mix evaporates, is going to be harder to start, but if used reguraly and put away with a clean dry carb, they will not give you problems
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s