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3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy


For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โ€œcloningโ€ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โ€œrunningโ€ display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โ€œSupposedlyโ€ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โ€œabove average qualityโ€ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โ€œavailability listingโ€.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ€“ most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โ€œreasonablyโ€ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โ€œlook alikeโ€ eng...






















Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.
10,029 REPLIES 10,029

VDOCAD
Explorer
Explorer
One quick question for all of you Champion generator owners. Has anyone been able to run a welder with it? I asked the Professor a while back and his answer was that this type generator could only run an 85A Arc Welder. Well, today as Mr Wizard stated, it is well over 105 here in Los Angeles, and I was crazy enough to wear a heavy jacket for a few minutes to run a test.
I have an arc welder that works both with 120V and 240V depending on how you wire the plug. I fired my champion, let it run for a few minutes and then tried to weld some 1/8" steel using all three outputs from the generator, the 20A plug, the RV plug and the 240V plug. In all cases the generator bogged down big time within 3 or 4 seconds of striking an arc.

I thought I read somewhere in these 600 pages that actually Mr Wizard was able to run his wire welder with his champion just fine. Am I wrong?

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
because i'm such a heavy PC user, many hrs a day, i avg 4-5 hrs for recharge, MW etc per day

usually first time 10-11 am startup for a couple hrs then again at supper, for a few hrs, unless i need power for some other reason

ON really hot days, i will run it approx 9 hrs for the A/C fortunately that doesn't happen too much, the last few days of 100+ are the first since april

I am not the avg user, and this genny is nearing the 2000 hr mark

i would say anywhere between 20hrs lowside and 35+ for avg useage, but a hot week could see 70 hrs of use

my dream, 1000watts of solar and a huge battery bank, but i can't afford to finance it, and it would be a LOT of weight to carry around
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
thank god ! and thank CPE for my generator and coleman form my A/C


Just curious, George..... how many hours a day do you run your Champion generator? If I understand correctly, you are not plugged into the grid. On a day like you had today, how much fuel do you use?

We had the heat thru last Tuesday. It is now very pleasant. You may keep anything over 90 on the Pacific side.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
its 108 today, it was 107 yesterday

thank god ! and thank CPE for my generator and coleman form my A/C

it is NOT cold in my MH, but it is under 85 in here and a lot better than being outside at 108.5 according the weather station located at the nearest high school

humidity is 8% and there is a HOT santa ana wind blowing, red flag alert NO camp fires
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
This posting and attached images are more for thinking about than providing any new information.

In the Spring of 1987 I purchased a Kawasaki GA1400A portable generator. Along with the generator I also purchased a GE Porta-Cool 5000 BTW air conditioner. My plan was to take the 1400 and the air conditioner with us to the West Virginia State Fair (the 1400 was not powerful enough to run the rooftop air conditioner on the camper).

There was an outside hatch in the 22S Wilderness camper we had at the time that allowed placement of the air conditioner so that cool air was circulated if I opened the cabinet doors under the bed.

The system worked extremely well allowing us to not only cool the rear bedroom area but the entire camper.

In 1998 we purchased a 30โ€™ Mallard. No slides โ€“ rear queen bed. The bedroom had one of those pop-out escape windows. Thus, I made out of 3/4" plywood a filler for the window that hooked over the sill and allowed me to mount the window air conditioner (which I carried in the back of the TV). Again, we had cool air in the bedroom even when we had no hookups. It was during this period that I discovered that the small air conditioner could also be powered from a 1,000 watt inverter (I no longer own that inverter - one pictured is a 1,500 watt) for at least an hour from a single battery. This was long enough to cool off the bedroom after a hot day without running a generator.

As our subsequent campers became larger and power needs increased, the GA1400A was retired in favor of the Champion 40008 we now use.

I still have the little GA1400A. It is a direct drive NON-INVERTER generator that has sound abatement panels. The design of the generator is such that cooling air is drawn in from the engine fan and exhausted over the muffler โ€“ much in the manner our Chinese gensets do.

While the engine on this unit is much smaller than the 200 CC units on our 3,000 watt Chinese gensets and will naturally produce less noise, considerable reduction in noise is noted from the use of the panels. I have measured this unit at 62 dB with a load. Removing the panels increases the noise to 65 dB โ€“ a difference of 3 dB.

You will note from the photos that the muffler is NOT isolated as I suggest for the Chinese gensets. On a smaller unit it may not be necessary. On our units I still believe it would be best to isolate the muffler.

Also note the bottom is open as I described in an earlier posting as a possibility for a sound enclosure on one of the Chinese gensets. Additionally, the panels are not insulated.

This design could easily be adapted to one of our Chinese gensets to reduce noise. Yes, Bob, we can do it without an additional fan.













Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
I have an experience I want to share. It is completely true and has not been embellished:

Last week I went down to East Tennessee to visit my Mom. We went out to dinner Friday night. In the booth behind me was a gentleman sitting alone. He was talking on a cell phone and I could not only hear him, but the person he was talking to.

The conversation was about a business he had started. Many of his products were imports from China. During the conversation he said that his customer service line would only be open betwen 3:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m. meaning if someone had an issue with his products they could not call at any other time.

I do not know if this guy had generators in his product line or not. But, it was obvious the only thing he was interested in was collecting profits.

I've been accused of being a Champion Power Equipment chearleader in the past. Maybe I am. But when one hears first hand of how a business man intentionally makes customer service almost impossible to reach, yet still claims he has customer service, makes me sick. It will most likely be a company like this one.

Way too many rip-off companies out there selling (junk) with no real support.

Again, this story is true.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
toprudder wrote:
I think that is an excellent approach. There are a couple of things I would do differently. First, I would use the coffee can idea you mentioned earlier to extend the end of the generator head to an opening in the enclosure, so cool air would be drawn directly into gen head. Second, I would open up a vent between the cylinder and muffler, so all the air drawn into the housing (from the engine and generator) would exit the enclosure by way of the muffler. I believe if you do that, you will not need the fan in the bottom of the enclosure.

Bob R


I agree.

I hope everyone else understands what all these different designs have been about - testing, collecting essential operational data, analyzing the data and applying it to yet a newer design.

Ironically, the need for cool air across the AVR (the genhead shown in the photos did not have an AVR) was not addressed until a later design was built and tested. That's when the "coffee can" and fan was added.

I'm still analyzing, collecting data, and researching. Ultimately, another enclosure with a different design will be created. Can't quit just because the one I have now works - it can be made better!
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

toprudder
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
Going back several years, the first full enclosure I built isolated the muffler from the rest of the components but did not insulate it so that heat would not radiate.

This design was very effective in reducing heat within the enclosure and would be a good approach for anyone attempting to design a new, portable sound abatement enclosure.

While it may sound silly, the use of 1/2" Hardibaker cement panels to create this isolation is ideal. Waterproof, heatproof, high density, easily cut for fabrication. The isolation panels I used in the above design were aluminum covered with auto carpet underlayment.

This (experimental) enclsure actually worked extremely well at reducing sound and still providing adequate cooling, but proved to be too large and heavy for my needs. Aditionally, I had not fully resolved the fuel tank/pump issue when I built this enclosure.

I think that is an excellent approach. There are a couple of things I would do differently. First, I would use the coffee can idea you mentioned earlier to extend the end of the generator head to an opening in the enclosure, so cool air would be drawn directly into gen head. Second, I would open up a vent between the cylinder and muffler, so all the air drawn into the housing (from the engine and generator) would exit the enclosure by way of the muffler. I believe if you do that, you will not need the fan in the bottom of the enclosure.

Bob R.
Bob, Martha, and Matt.
Tucker, the Toy Poodle
'09 K-Z MXT20, '07 Chevy 2500HD Duramax

Toprudder.com

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
Professor95:

Hmmm, this is new thought and design. The completion will be interesting along with the dBA.

Floyd

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Going back several years, the first full enclosure I built isolated the muffler from the rest of the components but did not insulate it so that heat would not radiate.









This design was very effective in reducing heat within the enclosure and would be a good approach for anyone attempting to design a new, portable sound abatement enclosure.

While it may sound silly, the use of 1/2" Hardibaker cement panels to create this isolation is ideal. Waterproof, heatproof, high density, easily cut for fabrication. The isolation panels I used in the above design were aluminum covered with auto carpet underlayment.

This (experimental) enclsure actually worked extremely well at reducing sound and still providing adequate cooling, but proved to be too large and heavy for my needs. Aditionally, I had not fully resolved the fuel tank/pump issue when I built this enclosure.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
toprudder wrote:
Agreed.

I have to wonder about possible negative side effects of fully insulating a muffler. With a large muffler, there is a lot of surface area for heat to dissipate. While it is undesirable for this heat to radiate to other parts of the generator, it is desirable for the heat to radiate out of the muffler. This would help to cool the exhaust before it exits the muffler. Cooling the exhaust reduces the volume of the exhaust and should therefore reduce the backpressure some small degree.


As usual, (IMHO) Bob is correct in his analysis.

I did post my experience with this several days back. By insulating the muffler, it is possible to lower sound levels by at least a dB. My attempt (and discovery) to do this was successful in that respect. But, I do not believe it is an adviseable approach for the reason Bob has cited and would NOT advise that anyone wrap or box their muffler with massive amounts of insulation to reduce sound.

My muffler is no longer boxed. In fact, I no longer use the OEM muffler at all having elected to use one that is longer and thinner and more easily mounted under the carrier on the back of my TT where the genset is mounted.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

Billyde
Explorer
Explorer
bought a Champion 3500 watt gen set, Model C46340 in May. broke it in following the instructions. used it at the rolex race at watkins glen. powered two TT's. no AC, just fans, coffee makers, tosters, and a mocrowave. it has (1) 120/240 20A twist lock, (1)120v 20A RV, (1)120V 20A, and a 10A 12V DC. recaptacle. it is switched between the twistlock and the rv outlet. Voltmeter on the panel never dropped below 115V. Bill

newwizhoo
Explorer
Explorer
Have any of you in search of trying to build a quiet enclosure for a "louder" genny seen this product. "Acoustiblok"
1/8 of an inch thick.
They claim has lowered db levels by 30.
Do a search on their website.
Looks pretty amazing.
I wonder how well an enclosure wrapped in this stuff would do.
Ed, Wendy, Nate, Kelly, Kate
2004 Silverado CC D/A 4x4
2005 Sandpiper 325BHD

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
Again agreed,

In thinking about the Honda some thoughts are~ There are no sound lowering panels, no wrapped muffler. The inverters are a different bread of cat. Inverters allow for a lower RMP with lower demand and give a lower sound level with lower RPM. The open frames all operate at 3600 rpm and most have the same sound level as reported. MrWizard has it right idea 'cooling design is a major factor' I like this part. ~ 'very efficient no scatter'. The air flow on the open frames, not the same. Air flow from the engine follows a path over the engine then to the muffler. If a wall is created at the genhead end, that hot air will be the air intake to the genhead. Not good. But workable. The air exhaust from the genhead fan is down and out from between the engine and genhead. This presents a inherence, but must be taken into consideration. This is my finding. There is a need to isolate the air intake from both ends. But. I like what Bob R has to say "what could possibly go wrong" Welll, for one, if sound lowering is the idea, the openings resonate the sound from a enclosure. Just one man's opinion. Now if you enclose the genset with only one air intake as shown on my MH installation, a 1150 cfm 12v 80watt fan is used at the location of the genhead exhaust. Down and out. One intake, one exit. That took care of the heat and lowered the sound level, with the material used to, 60 dBA @ 7m straight out after several checks with a meter from Radio Shack. This is NOT a simple solution. These open frame gensets are PORTABLE and a solution for sound lowering should also be PORTABLE. There are thousands of open frames in use by RV folks who want to be kind to their neighbors. Perhaps this thread will meet that need.

Floyd

toprudder
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
the 'cooling' design is a major factor

all the air come in one end flows over the inverter electronics, then the alternator, then the engine, then over / around the muffler

very efficient no scatter, very little turbulence, totaly different than the open frame setup

Agreed.

I have to wonder about possible negative side effects of fully insulating a muffler. With a large muffler, there is a lot of surface area for heat to dissipate. While it is undesirable for this heat to radiate to other parts of the generator, it is desirable for the heat to radiate out of the muffler. This would help to cool the exhaust before it exits the muffler. Cooling the exhaust reduces the volume of the exhaust and should therefore reduce the backpressure some small degree.

The muffler is not insulated in the Honda EU2000. And, in fact, they have air blowing around the muffler to cool it.

May not be a big deal. I always play the "what could possibly go wrong" game. :h

Bob R.
Bob, Martha, and Matt.
Tucker, the Toy Poodle
'09 K-Z MXT20, '07 Chevy 2500HD Duramax

Toprudder.com