3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[bobandcat]

Professor95,

Where is your enclosure's hot air exit?
Is you bottom open to allow the generator head cooling air to exit?

Thanks for your input on the Temp Limit Switch.

[professor95]

bobandcat wrote:
I thought of the TEMP LIMIT SWITCH as I was was writing my last post.
Ideas from Professor95, MrWizzard or anyone else on how to set up the temp limit switch to turn off the generator would be appreciated.

The simplest approach would be to use a normally open (NO) sensor that closes at a specified temperature (180 degrees would be good). Ground one terminal on the switch and run the other terminal to the low oil cut off sensor on the engine. An appropriate normally open switch may be a little hard to locate. They are prominate in heating systems so a trip to HVAC supplier may be necessary to find what you want.

[professor95]

I had a chance today to actually assemble my latest sound reduction prototype.

I used my original ELM3000 for the prototype. I want to be sure my ideas work without damaging a genset before I modify my Champion 40008. The Champion is electric start and the output is much, much cleaner than the ELM.

The engine has been converted to propane. This is my 5th propane conversion. I have become more familiar with the process and only purchased the demand regulator ($50). I made my own load block, modified the OEM carb and recycled a bar-b-q regulator for propane. It is a simple process once you understand the details.

The muffler is relocated outside the enclosure. I cut the OEM manifold and brazed on 1/2" cast threaded piple nipples. In the prototype it is under the table the genset is sitting on. In the final project the muffler will be under the carrier on the RV.

Gas tank is removed.

Sound absorbtion panels are made of fiber board sheathing. Easy to cut, cheap and effective. I have not decided what material to use on the final project.

No extra fan was used in this prototype. But, one will be needed for hot weather and operation under load. I will explore the size and placement later.

Sound level was an extremely low 59 dB at the standard measurement distance of 21 feet. This is Honda 2000i quite! Also lower than built in MH gensets. Truth is, you can hardly hear it at 21 feet. I believe I can get it even lower with a little tweaking of the enclosure design.

Like I said earlier, I believe the key to successfully building a compact enclosure is to get the muffler outside the box to reduce heat and either convert to propane or relocate the fuel tank to make the system safer. My final system will draw propane from the exixting RV supply, thus the 20# tank will not be needed.

I'll build the the final project around my Champion 40008 when it is too cold to work outside. I'll keep you posted.

Click on the link address to see photos of the prototype:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/dscf0015.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/dscf0020.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/dscf0017.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/dscf0016.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/dscf0018.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/dscf0019.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/dscf0022.jpg

[bobandcat]

I thought of the TEMP LIMIT SWITCH as I was was writing my last post.
Ideas from Professor95, MrWizzard or anyone else on how to set up the temp limit switch to turn off the generator would be appreciated.

[Old___Slow]

Bob:

Please, if you will, keep us posted with info' on the TEMP LIMIT SWITCH.... Your help and input is important to all of us with box and compartment projects.

Floyd
O&S

[bobandcat]

Old & Slow wrote:

bobandcat:

So happy to see your back to us........I know for sure you have been there, done that. Two things, one glad you posted the temps. With 145 degrees in the enclosure on a 100 degree day, do you feel this temp. safe or could maybe the temp. rise to 160 degrees?
Second, Did you try only air intake to the engine side and the genhead side direct, no other air intake?. What I am finding is hot air recalculates after being expelled from the generator only to increase the temps. At present, my trial is venting the expelled air just above the engine head. Still temps running 180+. I do not know the highest temp. that would be safe.

Floyd
O&S

What temperature is safe is something you must decide for yourself.

Professor95 stated earlier in this thread the temps when the wiring insulation would start to break down.

Yes, the temperature could rise above my observed temps. That is why I have a gauge installed to watch the temps inside the generator compartment. I am also planning on installing a temp limit switch to turn the generator off if the temp rises.

As previously stated, my first exhaust fan (low cfm) was above the engine and was not successful. My second exhaust fan (300 cfm) in conjunction with the top exhaust fan seems to do the job. I personally believe that some combination of intake and/or exhaust fans are necessary to successfully cool the generator in an enclosure.

The entire bottom side of my generator is open so that re-circulation is probable. However, this is offset by the high fresh air volume created by the exhaust fans that expel the heated air.

If you want to eliminate re-circulation, you have to take air in from the engine side of the enclosure and have it exit through the opposite side of your enclosure and the bottom for the generator head cooling fan. To reduce noise, you would need to baffle these openings. This would be a reiterative process to obtain the desired temperature and noise balance.

[Old___Slow]

Old & Slow wrote:

professor95 wrote:

AZJIM1 wrote:
Also, somewhere in this topic there was a comment that Champion was working on a kit to make the generators a little more quiet . . . any news on that?

In one of the campgrounds we were staying in I saw someone using the smaller Champion Generator. I know it is too small for AC use, but what does anybody know about it as far as noise, weight, and usefulness for non-AC RV use?

CPE reports that the design of the existing 3500 series of generators makes it difficult to achieve significant sound reduction by just adding a few panels. Adding enough sound reflecting/absorbing material adversely affected operating temps to the point Champion put the project "on hold".

There is at least one generator in the family of common size Chinese
built generators that has noise reduction panels in place. I have never seen one but would love the opportunity do get my paw on a unit for disection.

Professor95:

Was your reference to Huacen Power Equipment Model HG3800SE? I was curious and went to their website and found this info' 3.3/3.7 KVA operating noise level 63/7..........I continue to believe we can beat 63/7 with a noise reduction box.

[Old___Slow]

bobandcat wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:


Professor95:

After some trial and error with the muffler and fuel tank relocated, this is what I observe. These are only est. numbers and not conclusive. Apx. 80% of the air intake comes from the hand start assy. and 20% from the genhead, that is expelled in the middle of the genset. You may correct me if wrong. The air expelled has good force. My question. In building a enclosure with sound lowering material and supplying air intake confined to the start assy. and genhead, do you believe the air expelled from the genset needs any additional fans?

Floyd
O&S

I have built, used and modified an enclosure where the air intake and air outflow are all open to the bottom.

My results with the muffler located outside of the enclosure:

No additional fan: Temps inside the enclosure reached 170+ on a 100 degree ambient day within 30 minutes run time. Test stopped to prevent damage to the genset.

Small exhaust fan in top of enclosure: Temps inside the enclosure reached 168 degrees on a 100 degree ambient day within 30 minutes run time.

300 CFM squirrel cage exhaust fan mounted on generator head side of enclosure: Temps inside of the enclosure stabilized at 145 degrees on a 100 degree ambient day.

My conclusion:
Hot air exhaust fan or fans are necessary to successfully control the generator enclosure temps. The final cfm and location of the fan or fans must be determined by actual testing of the enclosure.

bobandcat:

So happy to see your back to us........I know for sure you have been there, done that, with your project. Two things, one, glad you posted the temps. Second, I found Lowe's has the 300cfm fan you mentioned. I may in the end need this fan.


MrWizard:

Ten years at the temp. problem has taught you, I do believe, just about everything that can be learned. Your thought was outside cool air needs to be directed by duct and fan to the engine. That will be my next endeavor. Thanks, MrWizard for the box link, my thought, the box is much to large. My box is only only 27"x21"x21" might cut the height to 18" and the fuel tank will be placed on top, muffler relocated with a metal plate attached first to the plywood.

EDIT:

To Firedude/Lou's Gen. Project:

After more carefully looking at Lou's box I find the two baffles which isolate the the expelled air from the air intake to the genset. Though I can't see in a picture it's assumed the hot air is expelled through the bottom. Fresh air to the engine and genhead (to my way of thinking) is correct. One more comment, the box looks great.

Someone else please give us your finding.

Floyd
O&S

[MrWizard]

maybe something like this, but move the muffler outside

or adapt this idea to genset compartment with the muffler outside

http://firedude.thefiredude.com/content/view/669/79/

rv net post about the same project

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/15131645/gotomsg/19563215.cfm#19563215

[bobandcat]

Old & Slow wrote:


Professor95:

After some trial and error with the muffler and fuel tank relocated, this is what I observe. These are only est. numbers and not conclusive. Apx. 80% of the air intake comes from the hand start assy. and 20% from the genhead, that is expelled in the middle of the genset. You may correct me if wrong. The air expelled has good force. My question. In building a enclosure with sound lowering material and supplying air intake confined to the start assy. and genhead, do you believe the air expelled from the genset needs any additional fans?

Floyd
O&S

I have built, used and modified an enclosure where the air intake and air outflow are all open to the bottom.

My results with the muffler located outside of the enclosure:

No additional fan: Temps inside the enclosure reached 170+ on a 100 degree ambient day within 30 minutes run time. Test stopped to prevent damage to the genset.

Small exhaust fan in top of enclosure: Temps inside the enclosure reached 168 degrees on a 100 degree ambient day within 30 minutes run time.

300 CFM squirrel cage exhaust fan mounted on generator head side of enclosure: Temps inside of the enclosure stabilized at 145 degrees on a 100 degree ambient day.

My conclusion:
Hot air exhaust fan or fans are necessary to successfully control the generator enclosure temps. The final cfm and location of the fan or fans must be determined by actual testing of the enclosure.

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

AZJIM1 wrote:
Also, somewhere in this topic there was a comment that Champion was working on a kit to make the generators a little more quiet . . . any news on that?

In one of the campgrounds we were staying in I saw someone using the smaller Champion Generator. I know it is too small for AC use, but what does anybody know about it as far as noise, weight, and usefulness for non-AC RV use?

CPE reports that the design of the existing 3500 series of generators makes it difficult to achieve significant sound reduction by just adding a few panels. Adding enough sound reflecting/absorbing material adversely affected operating temps to the point Champion put the project "on hold".

There is at least one generator in the family of common size Chinese
built generators that has noise reduction panels in place. I have never seen one but would love the opportunity do get my paw on a unit for disection.

Many innovative enclosures have been built by forum writers. I contend my earlier posted "simple solution" remains extremely effective for almost no cost. It is made of 1/4" fan fold foam panels that are erected with the aid of duct tape and otherwise store flat under the bed mattress.

As engine and generator size goes down, so does the noise level. Keep in mind the majority of sound is NOT from the muffler on the Champion but the mechanical assembly(s). I have a 1400 Watt Kawasaki as well as the Champions. Without the need for AC, it powers Nancy's hair dryer, the microwave and will recharge the battery(s).

On a wild hair I tried a different type of sound enclosure earlier in the week. I did not make photos but will as I repeat the experiment with better materials. I set the genny in the driveway elevated on 4 cinder blocks. there was a piece of old carpet on the driveway under the blocks. I then placed a cardboard box over the genny with the open bottom of the box also resting on the blocks. This left the entire area under the genny open (8" high). I have a 3/4" NPT nipple welded on the end of my muffler - I cut a hole in the box and ran a piece of 3/4" pipe out the hole.

I started the generator and put the box over it. I ended up cutting another hole next to the muffler and one about 8" square in the top (over the gas tank) at the genny end.

Noise dropped noticeably (I did not make db measurements). I think with some adjustments and more appropriate materials this is another design to consider. I still believe the muffler and possibly the AVR and gas tank need to be outside the enclosure. I see the result in my head but need to have a left hand back to do some building. That is still a month or more away.

For those interested, give it some thought and share your comments.

Professor95:

After some trial and error with the muffler and fuel tank relocated, this is what I observe. These are only est. numbers and not conclusive. Apx. 80% of the air intake comes from the hand start assy. and 20% from the genhead, that is expelled in the middle of the genset. You may correct me if wrong. The air expelled has good force. My question. In building a enclosure with sound lowering material and supplying air intake confined to the start assy. and genhead, do you believe the air expelled from the genset needs any additional fans? Maybe I should wait for your new design and this question will have a answer.

My last outing to a large State Park here in Texas I noticed so many rigs in need of portable power. The main gripe campers have is always the noise from gensets. I believe your Quest to help solve this problem will be so much appreciated by thousands of campers. My bets are on the Professor.

Floyd
O&S

[skyzoomer]

Was there a sound enclosure solution for generators later than this one from Professor95? IOW, a best and final sound enclosure?

Professor95's sound enclosure post

[Rotton_Rob]

Just want to say thanks for all of the info. here.

[Old___Slow]

77charger wrote:
just bought one of theses champions this past week when my duropower after 2.5 years of hard use went out.(motor is fine just doesnt put out voltage might be a minor fix)

I was on vacation and needed a gen for trailer to charge batts during the day and to run the a/c so that my daughter can take a nap for a couple of hours in 95 degree heat.We were at lake powell there was a checkers in page that i knew of so we went there and came back with a new gen and it was the best option at the time.oiled it up and started it fired right up let it run with no load for a while.I did notice it is a little louder than my duropower but not by much.It ran the a/c fine but couldnt do the battery charger in med or hi(big garage type one while the air was running or do the micro with the a/c running.Could be cause the heat and altitude(3610) mid to upper 90s.I had no prob with the 3500 peak duropower running both turn the a/c to low then run either micro or batt charger.

But for being able to find one easily was a bonus esp already with a 30 amp plug in it going to try the silicone on the fan thing too.Just hope it will get me at least a couple of years 2 weeks i will be useing it in the desert for the weekend runnin the a/c and it will be running constantly over the weekend til then i might be a little nervous since that will be its torture test for me

77charger:

After one month of use with the Champion, what are your thought of comparing the Duropower vs the Champion. Also how is the silicon treatment to the fan working out?


Floyd
O&S

[Old___Slow]

Todd Barney wrote:
Home Depot also sells the 3-prong male RV plug. SKU 495344, $8.99 at my store. I used it to make a cable for my gen.

The cable (10-3 for portable cord) was $1.65/ft. SKU 155933

Todd Barney:

These two items met my need. HD had both items.

Thank you for the post,

Floyd
O&S