3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

I'm sorry professor, can't see very well, in this muddy water. From the view I have I'm lost as always when it comes to this subject and only wish to have a more clear picture. Being one of those (OLD) guys that missed taking the Electric 101 class I've been handy capped through life. You explain and explain again and I so wish I could get the drift. I'm floating in muddy water trying to understand the ground, floating ground, common ground, commercial, non commercial, north, south ...I feel like a real dummy. I ran a large company but this grounding floors me. I am almost afraid to finish my project of installing my new champ by wiring a RV plug from my Retrofitted genset factory tray. I need to wire, with a RV plug and 12 gage romex into the metal transfer box used by my old Onan. It has two wire (one white I think I understand is the ground and I don't know what kind of ground) and the black that I know to be hot and in the box is a copper unprotected wire that I remember as not being used. The way the factory set up was is fool proof. The power cord from the RV, you either plug into shore power or into the socket which leads to the genset. No chance to make a mistake. So I'm still lost about this white ground wire to the RV socket.
My Champ. genset in grounding to the frame by metal contact.

Floyd

[hbski]

MrWizard wrote:
.....when mounted in the genny head there is hot air blowing on the potted/encased side of the AVR.....

Why would this be so? The louvered cap is the inlet, so the AVR should see the coolest air as it enters the gen head.

I imagine it can still be a lot cooler outside, provided it doesn't generate significant heat itself.

[professor95]

TKMJ wrote:
In my own haste to get the genset up and running (a week after I got it) I started that puppy up (yes I added the oil first) and started using the genset. I did not plug my multi tester into the genset to check it. Shame on me bigtime. I ran my saber saw with no problem to cut out some 1/4 plywood figures. After I was finished with the saw I plugged my motorhome in to get some light going inside to get a little work done. It ran fine. I know not to use the A/C and other devices because of the design of the genset. 15amps max per receptacle. The A/C sucks 12.5amps. I did not want to over tax the genset. The problem occurred when my wife stepped into the motorhome with bare feet. She grabbed the pull up handle at the step and got zapped bigtime. 120 volts from her left hand down to her feet. It knocked her 10 feet as she fell on the driveway. Her hand had minor burns on it from the shock. She also has a minor burn on her right foot bottom. She was locked up on the handle for only a few seconds. I jumped out to help her and also got hit upon my exit. After shutting the genset down I disconnected the genset and plugged my meter into the 120 volt receptacle. Here are my results. hot to neutral 120V. hot to ground zero volts. neutral to ground 120volts. The receptacles were wired backwards. I then plugged the genset back into the coach and tested the frame to an earth ground 120 volts was the reading. I then disconnected the genset and plugged the coach into the house and retested it. Zero volts from the frame to earth ground. The problem is with the genset and not the coach.

Ken,

I finished reading your post about an hour ago. I also viewed your photos. This is my take on the generator based on the info you have given:

There really is not a protected neutral on these gensets like you have in residential power systems. Either side of the winding may be called neutral. The problem is when all of the outlets do not use the same point on the coil winding as the designated neutral and the genset is used to power an appliance (an RV is an appliance).

In the residential wiring world, the silver screw on a duplex outlet should have the white wire and the gold screw the colored one. But, gensets do not always follow residential wiring codes per NEC.

You said you measured at the 120 volt outlet. Did you measure at both outlets to see if the results were the same? Remember, on a split circuit the designated neutral will be common to both outlets (the center tap) but hot will be at different ends of the output coil(s). From the front of the outlet the longer slot should be "neutral", the shorter slot hot and the "D" shaped center opening the ground (actually grounding).

It sounds to me like your generator may have the designated neutral bonded to the frame and one of the two outlets may have the wiring reversed. This could be a potentially dangerous situation. I know we have had the bonding/grounding discussion before on this forum and agreement seems to evade the group. Even our Northern neighbors have code regulations that require the designated neutral on a genset to be bonded to the frame. I am adamant that this practice is not safe for a portable genset used with an RV (it is OK for connection to a residental power system). The neutral should not be bonded to a portable generator frame for RV use. The grounding lug should have the frame bond and the designated neutral will find ground, if needed, from the appliance it is used with. Increased safety is achieved when the frame on a genset having the power outlet grounding lug bonded to the genset frame is also bonded to earth ground.

I hope this is a little clearer than muddy water.

BTW, our extended summer RV travels have come to an end :(. It is now time to return to a job.

[MrWizard]

Mr Wizard:

You always give great ideas for modifications mostly (simple) ways to correct problems we experience with gensets. I'm quite sure the mfg folks will make some changes that have come from your focus. Others have expressed a desire to create a new thread. Could we start maybe with "Chinese genset modifications" We can express our views on the best and worst but hoping many will continue to share good info' and new ideas to improve the use of Chinese gensets. The idea to move the AVR is the best one (to me) so far. You constantly lecture us about heat. It will kill a genset.

Floyd

thank you

champion has the best CS, i have ever experienced, but it has been noted on here that there has been a problem with the AVR, they were having a shipping damage problem, but it seems that is getting to be less of an issue

the professor had a bad AVR, on his trip,lucky for him he had a spare, and i had one die on july 2nd, one phone call and one was on the way, but i did spend several days with out my little yellow friend being operational.

this AVR was inside the head for 3 weeks but i decided yesterday to move it out side and see if that would prolong its life.

I have too admit given the number of generators bought and commented on, the AVR is NOT a significant problem, NOT a high percentage, but having it go out the wrong way ( thermal runaway ) appears to cause high voltage problems, thermal shutdown would be much more preferred.

so i thought I would check out the feasibly of moving it.

from a cold start this morning, after an hr of run time the AVR is barely warm to the touch, while the generator head is much warmer but NOT hot, thats the outside of the head, ideally i would like to mount it inside the control panel totally away from the air flow around the generator head & engine ( that would mean extending the other 4 wires on the molex connector & finding room inside the panel )

if I had an infrared thermometer I could have taken readings of the AVR temp for comparisons, but alas, i do not

a digital meter with freq & temp measurements is on my 'BUY' list

and so is a new upconverting DVD/DVR recorder with ATSC HD digital tuner, i'm afraid they both have to wait.

[Wrace]

everymilesamemory wrote:
I've been trying to read through here to see what anyone says about the noise level of the Champion?

Is it quite like a Honda or Yamaha, or more comparable to a Contractor Generator??
Pat

I think this is a fair question and I think Wuttevr's point about how it will be used is a critical one.

I have the champion and think it is a very good value, but it is not well suited to my rving generator use. We boondock camp or camp at dnr, state parks, national parks, etc. We do not camp at rv parks, race tracks, county fairs, or other places where it is common practice for people to run their genny's all the time.

For our application the champion is far too loud. Yes, it is quieter than my full-on contractor generator, but not by much. I have read time and time again that, "I can hardly hear the generator when I'm in the trailer" type comments. For our application this is almost a mute point because:

1. When we go camping we spend most of our time outside the trailer not inside, and the loudness of the generator has a significant impact on the quality of environment around camp.

2. I am concerned about the sound level not only as it relates to our families enjoyment of the camping environment, but also for my fellow campers.

We will be purchasing one of the inverter generators to test alongside the champion. I've done a bunch of research, followed this thread closely, and come to the conclusion that it is an exercise in frustration to try and pencil out a comparison on paper to make a good decision on which generator is best for us. Especially where the issue of loudness is concerned. There are just too many variables involved.

Having said all that, I understand that any generator is going to make noise, but I sure would like to minimize it as much as possible.

[Wuttevr]

everymilesamemory wrote:
I've been trying to read through here to see what anyone says about the noise level of the Champion?

Is it quite like a Honda or Yamaha, or more comparable to a Contractor Generator??

Pat

I think it is also important to point out one other consideration; how it will be used? No one can deny that a Yam or Honda EU is positively whisper quiet at idle. Frankly, they are. I have been within 15 feet of them before I could discern whether or not they were running. The Chinese generators run at a constant 3,600 RPM, regardless of load. Yes it is loud, relatively speaking, yet significantly quieter than a contractor unit. But running an inverter unit at idle is fine for topping off batteries or making a pot of coffee. Running a roof-top A/C unit is a completely different story. There are reports that an EU won't run a 13.5 BTU A/C unit with the Econo-mode on (at least at elevation). With it off, they run full-out at 4,000+ RPM. Several of us have witnessed this first hand, and they certainly lose their "whisper quiet" status in this situation. I my "opinion", the difference between the two in this situation is less than significant (I am still waiting for a more scientific, side-by-side test with proper testing equipment).

What does it boil down to? What is a "silent generator" that is only quite under small loads worth to you? Do you want it primarily to run your A/C, or charge your batteries?

I will fully admit that my Champion is pretty serious over-kill in the spring and fall when all I need to do is charge my batteries during dry-camping situations. However, spending a grand on a 2000 watt inverter unit that won't run my A/C in the summer is overkill in its own special way as well.

Oh yeah, and the Chinese generators can be had for under $300, in case you missed that part.

Some might say this is a classic case of rationalization; wanting to believe that our $300 Chinese, Honda rip-offs are just as good as their $2000 competitors. Not so. I'd trade mine for an inverter unit in a heartbeat. But even though I have the financial wherewithal to do so, I have no interest in blowing 2 grand on something I might use on 10 camping trips a year.

Yep, I always thought I was the King of Rationalization. Now I know it.

[Old___Slow]

MrWizard wrote:
following with interest the comments on AVR failure, and in the interest of DIY testing, i have moved the AVR on my champion genset to out side from the genny head and mounted on the upper frame rail

very easy to do, i only had to extend (2) wires for the feild, the other wiring was long enough to reach with out extending the wires

I routed the wires behind the rubber grommet so they are against the head casing not the sharper edge of the end cap.

a 'by the hand' temp test says it s staying cooler, when mounted in the genny head there is hot air blowing on the potted/encased side of the AVR and the genny gets pretty warm, the genny end is difinetly hotter than where it is now mounted

this NOT an official/sanctioned mod

Mr Wizard:

You always give great ideas for modifications mostly (simple) ways to correct problems we experience with gensets. I'm quite sure the mfg folks will make some changes that have come from your focus. Others have expressed a desire to create a new thread. Could we start maybe with "Chinese genset modifications" We can express our views on the best and worst but hoping many will continue to share good info' and new ideas to improve the use of Chinese gensets. The idea to move the AVR is the best one (to me) so far. You constantly lecture us about heat. It will kill a genset.

Floyd

[rvdreamin]

everymilesamemory wrote:
I've been trying to read through here to see what anyone says about the noise level of the Champion?

Is it quite like a Honda or Yamaha, or more comparable to a Contractor Generator??

Pat

It isn't as quiet as high end inverter style generators but definitely isn't as loud as full blown contractor styles. It was very tolerable inside our travel trailer while the generator was running. A good investment for $300.

[everymilesamemo]

I've been trying to read through here to see what anyone says about the noise level of the Champion?

Is it quite like a Honda or Yamaha, or more comparable to a Contractor Generator??

Pat

[MrWizard]

following with interest the comments on AVR failure, and in the interest of DIY testing, i have moved the AVR on my champion genset to out side from the genny head and mounted on the upper frame rail

very easy to do, i only had to extend (2) wires for the feild, the other wiring was long enough to reach with out extending the wires

I routed the wires behind the rubber grommet so they are against the head casing not the sharper edge of the end cap.

a 'by the hand' temp test says it s staying cooler, when mounted in the genny head there is hot air blowing on the potted/encased side of the AVR and the genny gets pretty warm, the genny end is difinetly hotter than where it is now mounted

this NOT an offical/sanctioned mod

[TKMJ]

2003Summit wrote:

TKMJ wrote:
............

My idea is also to remove the 240volt receptacle and replace it with a 120volt 30amp twistlok receptacle so the cord will not fall out when the coach is moving.

Just my opinion but twist locks don't really "lock" as well as you would hope. The cord also comes out the "end" of the plug and puts more stress on the connector (pulling it down). Consider just replacing it with an RV recepticle, most RV plugs have the cord comming out the bottom, so they put less stress on the socket and the recepticle springs clamp the plug prongs pretty hard. All in all an RV plug in MHO are less likely to come out. You could also screw a little strip of velcro just under the socket and velcro the cord down too for added security.

That may not be such a bad idea. With your way I could remove the genset from the hitch platform and move it away from the coach when parked to cut down the noise. Thanks for the tip.

Ken

[2003Summit]

TKMJ wrote:
............

My idea is also to remove the 240volt receptacle and replace it with a 120volt 30amp twistlok receptacle so the cord will not fall out when the coach is moving.

Just my opinion but twist locks don't really "lock" as well as you would hope. The cord also comes out the "end" of the plug and puts more stress on the connector (pulling it down). Consider just replacing it with an RV recepticle, most RV plugs have the cord comming out the bottom, so they put less stress on the socket and the recepticle springs clamp the plug prongs pretty hard. All in all an RV plug in MHO are less likely to come out. You could also screw a little strip of velcro just under the socket and velcro the cord down too for added security.

[TKMJ]

http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb170/tkmjprod/

This is the link where you can see the mis-wiring on my new genset. As you can see in the photos the polarity is reversed between the hot and neutral polls on the receptacles. You can also see that the circuit breakers are hooked into the neutral line.

In other photos of the generator can itself, you can see that the coils are already split and not soldered together. They are located on terminal posts. This will make it easy to parallel the coils to double the wattage output to the 120volt receptacles. My idea is also to remove the 240volt receptacle and replace it with a 120volt 30amp twistlok receptacle so the cord will not fall out when the coach is moving.

http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb170/tkmjprod/">-http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb170/tkmjprod/

[TKMJ]

quote]To all the forums:
This was the post that helped me make the final decision to buy a Chinese made Genset. From this post I have been so blessed in my experience with the Champion C46540. It has exceeded my expectation. From a old man's point of view, It's just flat out the best thing that's come my way in a long time. I have cancer and needed something special. Floyd

Floyd,
You must be a "suck, squeeze, bang and, blow sort of guy (four cycle)! I've never heard of a genset having sex appeal. Get a room! Oops sorry! I forgot you have an RV. LOL!!! Glad your happy with it.

Ken

[MrWizard]

our best wishes & prayers for you, and i'm glad to be able to assist you.