3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[JConatser]

I agree with you 100% that UPS should know better than to drop boxes off their trucks, whether they're marked or not. Sadly, that kind of common sense seems to be in short supply these days, however.

On reflection, I also agree with you that the damage is most likely occurring during the time that UPS has them in their possession. When they come over from China there's probably a bunch of 'em banded together on a big pallet that will probably stay in the proper upright postion at all times; however, once the pallet's broken down and they start being handled one at a time by UPS employees, then all bets are off.

[MrWizard]

unmarked plain cardboard, well i stand corrected, blame the shipper..

but UPS/ or whatever freight company should know better than to DROP & bounce any thing that heavy,

I think the little 1200watt I got 2 yrs ago had some shipping brackets ( can't swear to my memory ) but i think the RV ready i bought last yr did not.

I wonder how big an impact/drop it takes to cause the amount of damage your unit received

this does seem to be an ongoing problem with 'shipped units', others have had problems, I don't recall any postings about store bought units being like this

so this is definitely caused in the final state side shipping from the auto-chains central wharehouse to the buying public,

you would think if they were getting enough returns or feedback they would properly mark the box.

I wonder if a bright red wood block under the engine to wedge it, would help

and a big tag, remove block before starting engine.

[JConatser]

MrWizard wrote:
... a boxed marked generator on all four sides...

The box my generator came in was a plain cardboard box with the smaller, well-marked generator box packed inside it. There were no markings of any kind suggesting what might be inside the box, nor were there any labels or markings saying that it contained fragile goods and that one side should always be kept UP.

While I would expect (and hope) that any shipping company's employees would treat boxes with respect and caution, I also know that, unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. (It's a whole 'nother discussion about how and why this is---and IMO, getting worse and worse every day---regardless, that's the reality of the situation). And of course, accidents do sometimes happen, despite our best intentions. With these realizations in mind (which to me falls under the heading of "Common Sense), if I were going to ship something to someone, I would pack and mark it accordingly (which also falls under the heading of "Common Sense").

Actually, the generator is packed really good---EXCEPT for the motor not being secured so that it doesn't move on it's rubber mounts. All it would take is a couple wraps of wire appropriately placed and the problem would be solved, regardless of whether they put any markings on the cardboard box or not. Just a simple, common sense thing to do...then again, maybe that's just me. :h

[MrWizard]

Mr. Tommy wrote:

I have been reading and reading this thread for some time now. I have the RV ready Champion generator. My simple question is this... Can I just use it the way it came out of the box without fear of [???]... I use it to run my A/C when dry camping and the temps reach into the high 90's and 100's. Like the average RV'er, I know nothing about technical electrical wiring and breakers and grounds and neutrals (beyond knowing that they must be there). I just wanna "plug and play" with no worries. Take it out of the pickup, set it on the ground, fire it up, relax.

Can I do that?

yes, plug and play

all the safety discussion about modifing the unit, does not apply to unmodified units,

use it out of the box un modified, un bonded, just plug it in and use it.

[MrWizard]

my personal opinion is the damage is done by UPS, they take the words 'drop ship' way to literally.

they go from china to the usa by the container loads, from champion to shucks/kragen auto parts wharehouse by the pallet load

from there they are shipped individually to the internet or catalog buyers

you don't need 'this is glass' on a boxed marked generator on all four sides,

UPS employees DON'T care, its a big heavy box not some little 'pill pkg' and they don't like it. from wharehouse to you it's mis-handled by UPS all along the route.

[JConatser]

Received my Champion generator a couple hours ago. I saw right away that the fuel valve coming out of the gas tank was bent pretty bad, and it only took about two seconds to see that it had been caused by the motor moving about an inch to the right on it's rubber mounts (no doubt due to being dropped on it's right side during shipment). The impact had also cracked the left side of the plastic air intake filter, plus a metal protrusion on the motor had broken a circular piece the size of a silver dollar out of the plastic cover on the rear of the control panel, just behind the circuit breakers.

From the looks of the fuel valve, I had no doubt it would leak where it was attached to the tank, but I poured a small amount of gas in the tank to check and make sure; sure enough, it leaked. I next took the control panel off and inspected the damage to the rear plastic cover to see if anything besides the plastic was damaged; it didn't appear to be.

I then called Champion and requested they send me another gas tank and fuel valve, plus another air filter cover and control panel cover. They readily agreed, and hopefully I'll have the parts in a day or two.

Although the damage obviously occured at some point during shipping, I put the blame on whoever did the original packing (the Chinese manufactuer, most likely?). After all, common sense should tell you that you need to secure the motor from moving, AND you should put plenty of "THIS SIDE UP" and "FRAGILE" markings on the box you ship it in---neither of which happened, at least in my case. Juan at Champion said he'd bring this up at their next meeting.

[Walrus127]

Just wanted to tell everyone how pleased I am with my new Champion. After having a terrible experience with my Elim 3000. I finally ordered the Champion. Well we used this past weekend at the NASCAR race in Darlington. It worked great 90 plus degrees and it ran the AC and the microwave without a problem. Also I am very impressed with how long it will run on a tank of gas. Thanks Champion.

[Oldfordman]

Mr. Tommy wrote:
I have been reading and reading this thread for some time now. I have the RV ready Champion generator. My simple question is this... Can I just use it the way it came out of the box without fear of [???]... I use it to run my A/C when dry camping and the temps reach into the high 90's and 100's. Like the average RV'er, I know nothing about technical electrical wiring and breakers and grounds and neutrals (beyond knowing that they must be there). I just wanna "plug and play" with no worries. Take it out of the pickup, set it on the ground, fire it up, relax.

Can I do that?

This is the way most are used. As for grounding, when you read Champion's instructions, they recommend grounding when there is a lot of water around. Rain, Flooding, or camping on swampy ground would qualify in my mind. If things are this wet, the stabilizer jacks are probably providing some grounding.

I have had no issues with my champion (RV Ready). I do make sure that all my cords have good plugs and the ground terminal has not been damaged (or even cut off like some people do). This way the generator and the trailer are at least the same potential. If you aren't getting zapped when the TT is plugged in to shore power you most likely won't when you use the generator.

Of course, if you absolutely demand a ground rod to feel good, here is a solution

Temporary Ground Rod

Don't know the price but one could certainly go cheap by just getting a dog tether screw, pour about 5 gallons of water on the ground and just put the screw in the wet soil.

[Oldfordman]

fireguy60 wrote:
Thanks professor for the info...

Now my next question, since I have the RV 30 amp plug on my gen, and I have a 30a RV extension cord, I would like to be able to run that 10/3 cord away from the gen, and run 15a circuits. You can buy a 30m to 15f adapter, but is that safe? What happens when someone plugs a 50 ft 14/3 cord into that adapter and tries to pull a 25a load?

I would build an adapter with a male RV plug, to a box with two 15a pushbutton breakers to each of two standard outlets. This would work, right? Theaoretically I could still pull 30a load, but on two 15a breakers.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I am usually wrong....

I built a "pigtail for mine using 2' fo 10/3 SO cord, a 4" square box and two duplex outlets. Just add the 15 amp c/b's like you described, although I didn't. Since it is not a permanent hookup and I also use a power strip with it's own c/b I don't see any issues. It isn't like one will start the generator and leave for a week or so.

I use mine to bring power into my house when the PUD has a leak in their system and all the electricity leaks out.:B

[MrWizard]

I believe there was a post about the NEW Champion models coming out, the new RV model that ultra is selling is 120v only

also the current USA gensets have pushbutton breakers, so they are NOT ganged together, tripping one does not trip the both, you end up with a hot circuit at ( half load ( amps ) full voltage.

someone from canada can confirm this or not, but i think in canada the generators have normal regular style flip breakers, they may or maynot be ganged together for the 240-120 generators sold there }


in the situation of fireguy60 the mfg version pre-mod, there was a breaker in each HOT on to 240, and a breaker in each half of the duplex on split load, still legal still code, but moding the genset and having one breaker in one line and one breaker in the opposing line while paralleling the windings is NOT Kosher.. I don't think you will ever find an isolation transformer with parallel windings and breakers/fuses on opposite output wires of the paralleled windings

they could safely be in either line, BUT only ONE line gets protected, not different lines on parallel windings/circuits going to ONE load

it takes one wire nut and a piece or 2 of wire to correct this, why take the chance on safety, arguing about the how the unconverted 240 model is when in 120 mode does NOT mean that is the safest way, only that it was not illegal for a 2 voltage unit to be mfg that way.

[toprudder]

fireguy60 wrote:

professor95 wrote:
Mr Wizard is also correct on the concept of a breaker in the neutral circuit. It sould NOT be possible to open the neutral line and leave the hot line closed. Thus, either remove the neutral breaker or use a tie bar so that both breakers will trip together.

Meaning no disrespect, professor, I value your input... that is why I have kept reading this thread. But how do you explain that the Champion RV Ready gen, when in 120v mode, has the breaker in the neutral circuit. Is that a problem?

With neither of the winding outputs connected to a ground, there is really nothing that determines which leg is "neutral". In fact, as someone has already pointed out, they measure the same voltage from neutral to ground that they measure from hot to ground. So, the only reason we would refer to either leg as neutral is because one leg is connected to the terminal on the outlet that is normally called "neutral".

Without a connection between the windings and any form of a ground, the generator windings could be treated as the output winding of an isolation transformer. Isolation transformers are used for (among other things) working on appliances or electronic products where parts of the internal chassis may be hot, it helps protect the service person in case they touch these parts. The isolation transformer breaks the ground reference so thereby removes the return path for any ground fault that might occur.

In the schematic provided above, there is NO connection between ground and any part of the circuitry that can be traced back to the windings.

Now, in the main breaker panel in your house, the output windings from the utility transformer are brought into the panel and the center tap is connected to a ground (copper water pipes, ground rod driven deep into the soil, whatever). Thus, both "hot" legs are instantly referenced to ground before reaching any circuit breaker.

One purpose of a circuit breaker is to prevent an over-current situation from overheating the wires, so for this purpose it really does not matter which leg the breaker is in, since opening the circuit on either side will halt the current flow. However, breakers are also used as a safety disconnect to allow work to be done on the wiring -- safely -- so the breaker is always inserted in the hot side of the wiring. This is also why 240v breakers are essentially two 120v breakers ganged together, they disconnect BOTH hots.

Back to the generator. Again, since there is no connection between "neutral" and ground anywhere, it really does not matter which side of the windings the breakers are inserted. They are merely to provide overcurrent protection of the generator windings (and, I might add, NOT the wiring external to the generator). If a safety disconnect is needed, use the provided switch or (best bet) TURN OFF THE GENERATOR. If the generator is connected to a system (house??) where the ground and neutral are connected, the connection is made "downstream" from the breakers, and since the windings can be viewed as an isolation transformer, if both breakers are tripped there still would be no return path for current flow in case of a ground fault. If only one breaker is tripped, there won't be a situation where the circuit is disabled but voltage is still present, you simply will have only half the output of the generator available. If you need to disconnect a circuit in the house to work on it while the generator is running, USE THE HOUSE BREAKERS.

I see no problem, and apparently the engineers at Champion don't either. JMHO, from being involved in electrical/electronics for over 30 years.

Bob R.

[Wgeorge11]

MrWizard wrote:

Wgeorge11 wrote:
Somewhere in the early life of this thread there's a discussion of grounding options via water pipes, grounding rods, and metal plates on dampened earth. I've had "grounding" experiences with wet feet on wet ground while touching the trailer, and prefer closing the circuit to ground via jumper cable and a short rod rather than my hands and feet!

just for clarification... did that happen while plugged into shore power or while plugged into a generator

I have never been 'tingled' while runing any genset and RV, but i have been a few times when on shore power

You're right, MrWizard, the issue was shore power related at a seasonal site. Grounding circuits have a way of corroding, and faults can be shocking. My insurance is a jumper cable to ground.

[MrWizard]

Wgeorge11 wrote:
Somewhere in the early life of this thread there's a discussion of grounding options via water pipes, grounding rods, and metal plates on dampened earth. I've had "grounding" experiences with wet feet on wet ground while touching the trailer, and prefer closing the circuit to ground via jumper cable and a short rod rather than my hands and feet!

just for clarification... did that happen while plugged into shore power or while plugged into a generator

I have never been 'tingled' while runing any genset and RV, but i have been a few times when on shore power

[fireguy60]

professor95 wrote:
Mr Wizard is also correct on the concept of a breaker in the neutral circuit. It sould NOT be possible to open the neutral line and leave the hot line closed. Thus, either remove the neutral breaker or use a tie bar so that both breakers will trip together.

Meaning no disrespect, professor, I value your input... that is why I have kept reading this thread. But how do you explain that the Champion RV Ready gen, when in 120v mode, has the breaker in the neutral circuit. Is that a problem?

[rpa91]

Here the deal.. I got one of these Chinese knock offs for christmas 2 years ago. I did not get to use it for a year due to health issues. So when I decided to try it I put a good synthetic oil in it and gas and it started on a the first pull. Bottom line is for the money you can not go wrong