3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Navychop]

neonhomer

You may be happiest with using batteries, and charging them off your car with jumper cables. You could add small solar panels to charge, but that's costly once you get past the trickle charging level.

[tmill2]

Any more info on these units? I am looking for one for my popup, which doesnt have A/C. The biggest thing I am worried about is the noise level. DONT TELL ME to buy a Honda or Yamaha.... I cant afford one. Thats why I have a `81 popup.....

Here are links to 1000W Chinese gensets I am looking at:
1, 2
and
3

These are links to the Ebay "stores" rather than to the listings themselves, since the latter expire. Depending on when you look, you may have to scan a little to see the 1000W generators. All of these go for around $100 ($30-50 shipping), weigh 40-45 lbs, are two-stroke and have a sound output of ~57db @ 7 meters.

There are several reports of 5000 BTU A/Cs ($75-$125 Wal-Mart specials) running off Honda EU1000i generators. These small A/Cs pull around 5 amps and most should fit in a camper van slider-type window (which is my interest). Since the sustained and peak wattage of the above generators appears to be similar to that of the EU1000i, it seems reasonable to assume that they might power a small A/C as well. The real advantage to this setup would be its simplicity. If either component failed, you could just chuck it in the dumpster. And of course you don't have to carry these around when you are not using them. Here are some links I have found that describe variations of this idea:

This guy uses a 5150 Daewoo A/C in his tent:

And this individual ( here and here) has a 5000 BTU A/C and Honda EU1000i combination he
uses on his boat.

Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but there is no 1000W Chinese genset thread, and the "buy a Honda, Yamaha or nothing" types seem to avoid this one.

[neonhomer]

youth4him wrote:
Just an fyi:

I saw in "heartland america" that they carry a 1000w with 12vdc genset for $200. It's 15x12x14, so small, but no idea on the noise level. For those of you looking for a pretty small one and if you don't have a/c, that might be an option.

I have no info on it other than what's on the site, and just thought I'd pass it along...

http://www.heartlandamerica.com/item/default.asp?SKU=50536&r=a1&f=f

Any more info on these units? I am looking for one for my popup, which doesnt have A/C. The biggest thing I am worried about is the noise level. DONT TELL ME to buy a Honda or Yamaha.... I cant afford one. Thats why I have a `81 popup.....

[Gallifrey]

I just want to share with everyone a positive experience with support on my generator.

A month or two ago I purchased a Champion 3500 watt generator. It runs fine and has started on the second pull every time. After considering some of the posts on this thread (I purchased the generator in the first place after reading this thread) I decided to break it in--more than I already had--and run it for five or so hours in a day.

Well, after about an hour it shut itself off. I started it up again and it again shut itself off after a few minutes. I checked the oil level, which was fine. I opened the gas cap and heard a hiss. So, apparently my generator has the problem where the gas cap is not letting air in the fuel tank. This problem has been mentioned before in this thread and also on Champion's FAQ on their website.

Of course, I thought I would get the run-around with support and that I would have to do all sorts of things with my serial number and photocopied receipts and all the other busy work that other manufacturers make you do even for the smallest repairs. Anyway, I emailed Champion at the support address listed on their web site. Within a few hours I got a reply asking for my address so they could send me a new gas cap. I sent them my address and a few days later the new cap arrived. Today the generator, with the new gas cap, ran for 2 1/2 hours without a problem.

So, I'm one happy customer. Of course, if I needed extensive repairs I would probably need to do all the paperwork and verification that is standard for warranty service, but for this small problem I'm quite satisfied that they were so responsive and offered a quick and easy solution.

[Gilitar]

Just noticed another detail on champion's website that I thought I should bring to everyone's attention. If you click on the link below and then scroll down you will notice that champion recommends different spark plug heat ranges based on operating conditions. Upon reading that information I decided to go ahead and buy the NGK B8ES since my generator will be used for hurricane backup. I also checked honda's recommendations on the GX200 and noticed that they only recommend one heat range. Maybe someone with more mechanical knowledge can confirm this info and share more info. I am starting to learn about small air cooled engines and I'm facinated with these honda clones.

http://cpeauto.com/de3500w_gen.htm

[professor95]

I will be rewirings to a single "parallel winding" 120V service as is shown in earlier posts with 15A breakers per winding and then 20A breakers for each recpt. I had planned on doing this initially and recommend it for anyone using the champion generator. As you mentioned it is only a matter of time and heat until insulation failure if you continously exceed 15 Amps on a winding. (Use of #10 for common neutral should not be overlooked)

You are correct that #10 AWG is the correct size copper for 30A service, and it is important to protect the neutral from overloads as well. But, considering the extremely short distances of wire inside your generator, it is acceptable and common to find wire that is #16 AWG being used to the outlets.

Actually, this is OK and no fires or danger is present since resistance increases with length - and these are 12" or less pieces of wire.

Sort of think of them like the "fuseable links" used in your car.

[professor95]

Well I finally picked up one of the champion generators the other day. After taking it out of the box I noticed that the right breaker switch button seems to be "stuck" in. The one just to the left of it is not "stuck" in. I am not speaking of the DC breaker switch. Is this normal?

It is a thermal breaker, not magnetic. If it trips, it will "pop" out and then you will feel some force.

[dan35chev]

Gilitar wrote:
Well I finally picked up one of the champion generators the other day. After taking it out of the box I noticed that the right breaker switch button seems to be "stuck" in. The one just to the left of it is not "stuck" in. I am not speaking of the DC breaker switch. Is this normal? I do notice that the buttons seem to be constructed a little different. If you own a champion please look at your generator and let me know.

I looked at mine and it appears to be the same as you describe. Feels a little different when pushed. I've ran mine only for about a hour total and only had a 500 watt light plugged into both duplex outlets and so far all appears well.

[Javlin101]

My kipor 2000ti runs like a champ.

Nof said, happy Campin

Jim

[Gilitar]

Well I finally picked up one of the champion generators the other day. After taking it out of the box I noticed that the right breaker switch button seems to be "stuck" in. The one just to the left of it is not "stuck" in. I am not speaking of the DC breaker switch. Is this normal? I do notice that the buttons seem to be constructed a little different. If you own a champion please look at your generator and let me know.

[dadsgp]

Proff-

I agree 100% with your champion generator description/caution.

Despite my short explanations. I thought you would catch me on the use of the word "existing" in my first email. Only engineers use a word like that; though I am use to the fluid analogies such as "head and flow" BUT ITS ALL THE SAME. I also stopped school with my BS 10 yrs ago and went to work in the field; perhaps this explains my lack of eloquence.

Paul w/ champion did respond to my email and I too am concerned about over amperage on the 20A breakered winding. I was not comfortable with his response. Especially to the question of continuous amperage rating of a winding (not directly answered).

I am going to ohm out the windings this weekend. I would be willing to bet they will be identical and the same as all other knock-offs. I guess the insulation could be different but seems unlikely. Paul mentioned that the first champions were sent out with 13A breakers and then champion sent out a breaker "upgrade".

I will be rewirings to a single "parallel winding" 120V service as is shown in earlier posts with 15A breakers per winding and then 20A breakers for each recpt. I had planned on doing this initially and recommend it for anyone using the champion generator. As you mentioned it is only a matter of time and heat until insulation failure if you continously exceed 15 Amps on a winding. (Use of #10 for common neutral should not be overlooked)

[professor95]

I received the following in my private e-mail this morning. Normally, I do not share the contents of private e-mail or who the sender is when posting back to the forum, believing that the sender would have posted here to begin with if he/she wanted to be identified. I am removing the sender's name from this quote for those reasons. The xxxxxx indicates removed words. Words in ( ) are words I added that appear to have been ommitted by the content author.

What remains is a response that is reported to have come from Paul Cole at Champion. For those who have been following this thread, Mr. Cole has been very responsive to questions regarding Champion. It is my assumption that he has chosen NOT to post directly to the forum recently since he is a vendor and forum rules frown on comments/participation by these folks since they often speak to advertising. Hopefully, repeating this message will not be interpreted as advertising but rather a responsible response to many of the questions being asked and discussed.

Randy

Dear Prof this is xxxxxxxxxxxxx heres a note I got from Paul Cole: Hello xxxxx,I'm pushing a tight time frame tonight, but I would like to comment that the professor answered in a very well taken approach. Working closely with the factory, we know we(are)attaining break point with our generator. Cost is always a factor, and our R and D pushes our tests to the limit. Unfortunately, most users do not treat our generator with even the slightest consideration. Their purchase is (not) worth a darn until they need warranty work or an exchange. They fail to send in (the)warranty card at least 50+ % of the time. The only time they value their purchase is when it stops performing. Then it becomes the biggest pile of (junk) money can buy. If they treated their car the same way, it would be in trouble too. Our gens sell at a fair price and we also have a good warranty with excellent support after the sale. With the low price factor we always get people affording things they probably should not own. Its not or never will be a perfect world!! Just thought you might understand my view. In closing, two things, 1) I answered the guy from xxxxxx, since he emailed me and (I) sent him a lengthy reply. No reply (back)yet. 2) Is there a chance you might have the professors email address? I would like to compliment him on his reply/ies. He has been fair in his reply to everyone and still does a good job at getting his point across. As with all generators, there are a thousand variables, such as price, materials, support, parts availability, and unforeseen defects and abuse by customers. It will also be a "Go Figure" situation. Thanks for your bird dog work, xxxxxxxxxxx.

Paul Cole - Technical Engineer
Champion Power Equipment
10006 Santa Fe Springs Rd
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670

Toll-Free 877-338-0999 X107 (weekdays)
Local no.562-236-9420
Fax no. 562-236-9429
Cell no. 626-230-5248 (24 hrs.) Voicemail
Website and Frequently Asked Questions go to
www.cpeauto.com
--

For Paul, or anyone else who wants my personal e-mail address, it is rtagee@comcast.net
Please, no spam. I have no interest in Viagria, real estate in Mongolia or fake Rollex watches. All "spam like" messages are automatically filtered and trashed.

[Skibane]

professor95 wrote:

There is a possibility Champion may be using a larger gauge wire in their windings, creating excess capacity that can handle 20 amps in one winding.

Generac uses a similar approach in some of their EXL series models: One of the two legs consists of two identical windings connected in parallel. This is the leg that is connected to a "full-power" 120 volt twist-lock outlet. The other leg has just single winding.

[dan35chev]

This is more advice I got from champion about running my 13.5 AC,seems inline with most comments in this post as to what this gen will do safely and prolong its life.

Regarding your AC, it will run effortless if you do not run any microwave simultaneously or in the case of an RV, a low battery pack may demand an additional 8amps silently in the background from the AC to DC converter. If batteries are very low, you will have to trip the converter breaker in order to use the Air at the same time. Or simply run the converter without the air cond. The air cond. unit will need 12Amps for running load and about 18-20 for startup. When using the microwave, turn the Air Cond. to fan only. Proper usage of the appliances, will have you using everything you need and allow the generator to provide adequate coverage.

[professor95]

AZDesertRat wrote:
bought the Champion and am very happy with it. It runs my 13.5 Brisk Air AC, microwave, TV and all the lights at once. I even cycled the AC quite a bit and it just barely changes pitch when the AC cycles back on and nothing drops out or dims. I've used it to run my salt water reef tank with about 1000 watts of light, 1/4 HP chiller and 9 pumps and all is well with it too.
I first tried it on the 15A side of the twist lock and duplex outlet and it would not start the AC unit but once I switched to the 20 A side no problem. Kinda scared me!

I certainly would not dispute what you have written. But, I want to enter a caution to you and anyone else who is operating 110 volt maximum loads from a series connected pair of windings.

As I stated earlier, power (watts) is a measurement of work that is, or can be done with a generator. The by-product of the power produced inside the generator windings is heat. This heat is also referred to as hysteresis loss.

When generators are manufactured, the gauge of the wire in the windings, the number of turns and the horsepower of the engine are all critical to output. The multiple turns of wire in the coils form inductors. Due to their length and size they also pose a resistance to the flow of current. Since generators are comprised of magnetic fields, this resistance is combined with existing reluctance to produce this heat.

The wires in the coils are tightly wound around iron or iron-compound forms. The iron not only holds the windings in place, the permeability of the iron increases the effects of the electromagnetic field concentrated around the coil. In order to get the largest amount of windings in the least amount of space, the wires are coated with a thin insulating material - sort of like a varnish or paint. Regular plastic or rubber insulation would make the coil it too large and prohibit heat transfer.

As current rises in these windings heat is produced. Under normal operating conditions, the heat is harmlessly dissipated and the generator continues to function. But, when heat becomes excessive, the copper wire in the windings expands, pushing out against the iron forms. This extra pressure can cause the wire to cut into the form, causing a "short" to ground. Another problem is the expanded copper wire, when it cools, leaves gaps within the coils where "dead air" space can exist. The expansion also creates a "crush" effect that can alter the conductivity of the wire in the coils. The insulation on the copper wires is stressed by the expansion and contraction and can crack or break down - not only from this but from heat breaking down the properties of the insulating compound itself. When we operate the generator again, heat produced around these "dead air" spaces may create hot spots in the coil since dissipation is reduced in these regions, further exacerbating the heat problem. Eventually, two or more adjacent turns in the coil of wire will experience a breakdown in the insulating material and create a short circuit within the winding. The short usually causes a bypass of current in a random number of windings. Thus the magnetic flux needed to create output in the generator also falls. As a result, the generator does not produce as much power. The lowered resistance and impedance in the coils causes larger current flows in the remaining working coil windings's. This produces even more heat and eventually you begin to smell this horrible odor like some one just threw a hand full of dog hair into the campfire.

Your generator is now toast, but the gas motor continues to just purr along. How long does this process take? Maybe once, or maybe a 100 times. I can't predict the the time with so litle technical info.

Now, risking the wrath of Champion, this is what concerns me with their generator. They use a 20 amp breaker on one of the windings. This winding does not appear from the detail I have to work with to be sufficient to continuously carry 20 amps of current without generating high levels of heat. While the generator may seemingly be OK right now, what lurks in the future at these higher current levels is of concern to me (see reasons above).

IMHO, the winding with the 20 amp breaker should be using a 15 amp breaker to limit current and, as a result, heat.

Still, there are some variables I cannot be sure of that would allow a 20 amp breaker to be safely used. There is a possibility Champion may be using a larger gauge wire in their windings, creating excess capacity that can handle 20 amps in one winding. But, since the 200 cc 6.5 HP engine cannot sustain a load in excess of 3,300 watts at 220 volts, they limit the load with a second 15 amp breaker to keep from stalling or bogging down the engine. Let's assume we are operating from the 120 volt outlets, with one winding fused at 20 amps and the other at 15, if we ONLY use the 20 amp leg total load is low enough that the engine is not "stressed" and it does fine. Of course, if we also add a load to the 15 amp winding, the picture rapidly changes. In theory, such a generator could sustain a total 4,400 watts output "IF" the engine were larger ( about 9 HP). My thinking is these things are not Rolls Royce's, for what they cost it is improbable that this excess capacity is there since it also increases the cost of producing the generator (copper = $$$). But, improbable as it may seem, it is possible. Dissection and comparison would answer that question. I do not have a machine to do that dissection on.

I'm an old(er) man who is somewhat cautious with what I buy and how I use it. I have had too many XX brand 1/5 HP rated 1/2" electric drills go up in smoke simply trying to bore a small hole in a piece of soft wood. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, there are proven limits to what an electrical appliance can accomplish. Good old Georg Ohm back in 1827 developed what we now know as a LAW (Ohm's Law). It is not an advisory or "sometimes rule". It is a long standing and proven LAW with a predictable relationship between current, voltage and resistance. We can't disregard that law. Advertising hype often distorts the results of the law, but it is only hype. For example, similar generators can be rated from 2,800 watts to 4,400 watts depending on how the manufacturer wants to manipulate mathematical formulas (Peak, RMS, Surge or Average are common ratings used that differ greatly.)

Be careful with your generator loading, my friend. You could soon be "burning the dog".