3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[rwjejits]

Professor95 - Thanks for the info. I'll maily be using this unit with my 30amp rv feed so I'm confident this thing should do the job out of the box with my 30-15 dogbone(at least 13.5 AC and a few lights..correct me if I'm wrong)

Do you happen to still have the flyer...is there some sort of add# or identifer that I could phone and ref to them?

[professor95]

Well, I just phoned Homier and they are firm on the $299 price. They said the add price may have been for a road show near-by or out of date.

You know, that is just plain old wrong on Homier's part. I received a hand addressed flyer in the mail last week. It was NOT for a road show. The place where the road show location usually appears had their web address. There was NO mention of a road show in the flyer. Scream "false advertising", threaten to give the flyer to a lawyer or the SCC. That stinks!

[professor95]

Question is, do you think power is split between the (2) receptacles (only 50% available from each one) or can I pull all 4000w from just a single plug?

I do not have one of these (Homier) generators. But, I am under the impression that full power is available from a single outlet, just like the ELM3000. I have checked a similar unit from Harbor Freight and found this to be true. Jiang Dong does this for all of the units I have seen or researched.

Please do not let the printed 4,000 watt rating mislead you. I am sure that is a surge rating. With a 6.5 HP engine, 4,000 continuous watts is unrealistic. I would only count on a continuous output in the 2,800 to 3,000 watt range.

[kneisl1]

Yes it did thankyou. I suspect the breakeer tripped because it is only 10 amp and it should be possible to run 15 amps through the generator after converting. I also wondered whether or not it would be necessary to increase the size of the wiring since the circuit is now capable of 15 amps whereas before it only could carry 7.5. Can anyone say what the wire gauge must be to support 15 amps?

[bob_b1]

kneisl1 wrote:
its been mentioned that the 3500 has screw terminals on the sockets etc whereas the 2200 does not.

Yes Kneisl1, That is what I stated a few posts earlier. The wiring schematic is identical on both the 2200 and the 3500. In fact, both units uses the exact same manual (in which the schematic resides). I have actually made the conversion in BOTH the 2200 and the 3500 models. Both models use the exact same displacement engine (with different HP ratings) and they have the same weight and dimensions. However there is a difference between the two when you open up the generator head panel. The 3500 uses thicker gauge wire. The 2200 wires are noticeably thinner. The 3500 has a four-screw terminal block that allows you unhook a wire with an 8mm socket. It is real easy to move the wires around inside the 3500. The 2200 is a different story. The 2200 does not have screw terminal block. It has a four wire plastic quick-connect. You actually need to strip wires and connect them using very small twist caps (again, these are not very substantial wires).

I should point out that my performance Improved after converting the 3500 and that my performance Dropped after converting the 2200. I'm guessing that the thin wires may not have been able to handle the load? Just guessing. The 2200 just kept tripping it's breaker anytime the A/C was started. I gave up on the 2200 and got the 3500 instead. No hassle doing the return at Pep Boys.

When I got the 3500, I attempted to run the A/C prior to the re-wire. It started and ran just fine. I could have done just fine without the rewire, but I wanted to use ALL of my generator (not just half). I did the rewire anyway, and now know that I getting everything that the 3500 can supply. It was never my intention to use the standard plug to supply all of my coach's power demands. For $10 I bought a 30-amp female plug end and hooked three wires up to the twist-lock connector. Ground went to Ground, Neutral(-) went to Neutral(-), and Hot(+) went to one of the two that were Hot(+). The other hot is now disabled due to the rewire.

The 3500 rewire only requires an 8mm socket to complete the whole job.

Step 1: Locate the Generator Head Cover. That is the finned round cover on the right hand side(looking at the front) held on with two 8mm bolts. Remove the two 8mm bolts on the generator head cover.

Step 2: Identify the terminal block. It has four 8mm screws that have eight wires plugged into it. Two wires per terminal.

Step 3: Identify where the wires from front panel are coming from. You will notice that they come through a rubber grommet on the 12 O'clock position on the opening. Four of the those wires lead to the top side screw terminal block.

Step 4: Identify the four wires coming from the generator head. They come up from the bottom the thermal block.

Step 5: Unscrew the 8mm screw from the red wires. You will not be using this terminal anymore. Remove both red wires.

Step 6: Remove the 8mm screw from the blue wires. Leave the blue wires on the bolt. Take the top red wire (from the panel) and attach it the terminal that the two blue wires are using. Reattach the 8mm screw. This terminal now has two blue wires and one red wire (from the panel).

Step 7: Remove the 8mm screw from the brown wires. Leave the brown wires on the bolt. Take the bottom red wire (from the generator head) and attach it the terminal that the two brown wires are using. Reattach the 8mm screw. This terminal now has two brown wires and one red wire (from the generator head).

Step 8: Reattach the two 8mm bolts on the generator head cover.

Step 9: Start generator and confirm that the panel meter now reads 120V instead of 240V. Using a multimeter. Make sure that the standard plug is reading the correct 120V and is using the correct polarity. The twistlock connector has the L-shaped terminal at the 6 o'clock position, it has the positive at the 3 o'clock position and the neutral at the 12 o'clock position. The 9 o'clock position is no longer used. Make sure that there is 120V between the 12 o'clock position (-) and the 3 o'clock position (+). Again, make sure that the polarity is correct. Check the voltage and polarity once again after you hook up your 30-amp to twistlock adapter make sure that everything is correct from the 30-amp side. This is not as complicated as it sounds.


Hope this review helps.

[kneisl1]

Yes I will contact him thats a good idea. The wiring diagram for these 2200 units appears to be the same as the largeer 3500 unit, except its been mentioned that the 3500 has screw terminals on the sockets etc whereas the 2200 does not. The neutral wire doesnt run through a breaker. Thankyou for this forum which has enabled me to feel OK about buying one of these generators. Ive wanted a generator since we lost eleectricity a few years back when it was 5 below zero for three days. I was able to stay in my house with my woodstove but everyone else went to the firehouse. Except for my neighbor who had a generator and made out even better than me.

[rwjejits]

Well, I just phoned Homier and they are firm on the $299 price. They said the add price may have been for a road show near-by or out of date. Oh well, still with shipping and no sales tax I'm looking at ~$350 to my door.

Now I'm torn between ordering a Homier 4000w through the mail and take the risk of damage, or an PowerPro 3500 from PepBoys (if they ever get any more in town since RITA just visited) for comparable price..but little less wattage and need to re-wire.

Will someone make my mind up for me?

[rwjejits]

Professor95 - re your post on the Homier 4000W unit.

Here is a link to what I'mm 99% sure is the same unit on ebay. It has some pretty good pics of the motor and panel layout (2x20amp 120v) plugs...single breaker. Also shows the JD plate on the motor.


http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-4000W-GENERATOR-GAS-PORTABLE-QUIET-RV-CAMPING_W0QQitemZ7547820269QQcategoryZ106437QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm going to call Homier today and see if they will honor the $199 add price and pull the trigger if yes. Before I do, just a quick question...since it is 120v only, (and after reading most of the data on this thread), it makes sense that all 4000w is available via the (2) receptacles.

Question is, do you think power is split between the (2) receptacles (only 50% available from each one) or can I pull all 4000w from just a single plug?

..or would I need to get it home and take the panel off to see how the receptacles are wired?

[professor95]

Theres only one breaker. The parts list says its 10 amps, nothing I can read on the breaker itself says what it is. Wiring diagram looks the same as the PP3500 (its a PP 2200) The volt meteer is hooked up so it measures the 240v circuit and the brown and blue wires run through the breaker with the neutral red wire attached to only the outlets. It makes sense to me the breaker is 10 amps because none of the circuits makes more than 7.5 amps.

Apparently the makers of your generator did not feel that it was necessary to fuse both sides of the 220 line. I am assuming that the netural or ground wire must not connect to the generator frame, which makes sense and is safer. The generators I have looked at only connect the grounding wire to the frame. Sounds like their belief is that if one side of the 220 volt line is open, it will be impossible for current to flow between the other side and ground. My next guess based on this configuration is that you have only one 110 volt circuit wired to the front panel of the generator, not two as most of the units we have encountered have. If you had two 110 volt circuits from a series connected stator, one would have to be unfused.

To answer your original question, yes, "IF" you rewire this generator for 110 only at full rated output, a larger breaker will be needed.

I am thinking Mr. Wizard may have one of these 2200 watt units. I do not and have not looked into one so my response is somewhat hindered. I encourage you to drop him a line (if he is not currently reading the forum) and see what his experience is.

[kneisl1]

>write me back if theres only one breaker<

Theres only one breaker. The parts list says its 10 amps, nothing I can read on the breaker itself says what it is. Wiring diagram looks the same as the PP3500 (its a PP 2200) The volt meteer is hooked up so it measures the 240v circuit and the brown and blue wires run through the breaker with the neutral red wire attached to only the outlets. It makes sense to me the breaker is 10 amps because none of the circuits makes more than 7.5 amps.

[professor95]

From a Private Message sent to my RV.NET e-mail box:

"What will give me more power for my TT with a 30 amp plug? A 2000 watt Honda or a 3,500 watt Power Pro?"

The Honda is capable of producing 16.6 amps at 120 volts to a single circuit. The PowerPro is capable of producing about 12.5 amps to a single 120 volt circuit. Looks like the seemingly smaller Honda wins this one.

[professor95]

lag1996 wrote:

So if i brought the powerpro 3500 and just pluged my tralier into it i would only be getting 25 amps out of it? and i need at least 30amps for the ac? sorry im realy confused.

No, you would only be getting 12.5 amps out of it since you are only using 1/2 of the generator as it comes wired from the factory.

[professor95]

Another question I have is: This 120/240v generator comes with a 10 amp circuit breaker. Since placing the coils in parallel will enable it to generate 15 amps at 120v, wont it be necessary to replace the 10 amp breakeer with a 15 amp (or greater?) Thanks!

If it is a 220/120 volt generator, it should have TWO circuit breakers, not one. If this is not the case, please write me back.

[professor95]

I’m going to do this again because the question about available power in generators seems to be on the front burner once more. For the guys who know all about AC systems, generators and the like, please bear with me. I am taking a lot of liberty with science to keep things simple for the folks having trouble with the amps, watts and voltage stuff. If this does help you better understand what is going on, I would appreciate knowing. If it seems silly and a waste of your time, please spare me the grief of complaining and just tell me not to go there again.

Here we go…..

Most all of these Chinese generators produce 220 volts at a stated wattage. It seems the 3,000 watt figure is very common.

But a RV with a 30 amp supply cord does not use 220 volts. It uses 120 volts. Feeding a 30 amp RV supply cord with 220 volts would be dangerous and damage equipment. So, we end up using half of the 220 volts the generator can produce.

Back in 1827, a German teacher named Georg Ohm concluded that there was a direct relationship between current, voltage and resistance in a circuit. It became know as Ohm's Law and is still valid today.

Ohm developed more than one law. The one we are concerned with is his law for power. Power is how we measure work in an electrical world.

Now, if you aren’t sure about all of this electrical jargon, think of voltage as pressure. Sort of like water pressure. The more pressure, the more “power” to do work, like blasting dirt off your RV with water or pushing electrons along with electricity. Look at current as the volume or number of electrons moving in a circuit, we measure this number in amps. Together, voltage and current have the ability to do work. We measure this ability to do work in wattage. If we take the voltage and multiply it by the amperage we are going to get wattage. This is Ohm’s Law for power. Voltage multiplied by amperage will equal wattage.

This simple truth is the key to understanding these little generators.

You probably know about batteries. Batteries in series add voltage, not current. Some folks hook two high current capacity 6 volt golf cart batteries in series to get 12 volts for their RV. Batteries in parallel add current, not voltage. Most dual battery set-ups on RVs come from the factory with two 12 volt batteries in parallel. The same thing pretty much holds true for the wiring in a generator. For right now, think of each half of the voltage circuit in a generator like the batteries.

It works like this: If the generator produces 220 volts and has a current rating of 14 amps, it will be a 3,080 watt generator. OK, let’s slice the voltage in half - to 110. Multiply that 110 volts by 14 amps and we end up with 1,540 watts. Since watts is a measurement of the amount of work we accomplish, it is half as much work as we get at 220 volts.

But wait a minute! The generator ad says “28 amps or 3,080 watts at 120 volts!”. How does this figure?

Simple: 2 plus 2. I have TWO 110 volt circuits pushing 14 amps each and producing 1,540 watts of work each. EACH, guys, E*A*C*H. Not together. For our RV, we need them hooked together, like the parallel batteries. We only have one feed to our 30 amp RV. We don’t have two. Everything in the RV is attached to that one feed. So, the other half of the generator is, well, useless to us. So the little genny just churns out that other half for nothing when it is plugged into our RV. The generator advertisements don’t usually bother to tell us this small detail.

But we can fix this so the other half of a 220 volt generator is not useless to us RVers with 30 amp feeds. We can swap around a few wires inside the generator and make both sides work for us. If we have both sides working at the same time in parallel, we can double the current. Double the current is double the amperage. Double the amperage is double the work the electrons will do. But the pressure, er… voltage, has not increased. So What? We don’t want or need a higher voltage! We need more electrons to do more work at a lower voltage (110 to 120 volts).

It is not nearly as complicated as it sounds. It can all be calculated with a little math. But you should also remember, we can neither create or destroy energy, we can only change or convert energy to another form. We can’t get more energy out of a machine than we put into it – perpetual motion does not exist. It is OHM'S LAW, not OHM'S ADVISORY that governs what we can get out of these little gennys.

OK guys, end of class.

Randy Agee
Professor, College of Computer and Electronics Engineering
ITT Tech
Richmond, VA

[Sonic1954]

Hatch-TX wrote:

lag1996 wrote:
So if i brought the powerpro 3500 and just pluged my tralier into it i would only be getting 25 amps out of it? and i need at least 30amps for the ac? sorry im realy confused.

My personal experience is that 20 amps is more than enough for [many models of] rooftop AC [including mine for sure]. Problems CAN arise when you try to operate anything else WITH the AC.

You would be able to get 1750 watts or about 15 ampres.

That should run your a/c but don't run anything else!

The re-wire is really quite simple. The directions here are excellent. The hardest thing is getting over your fear of killing your generator!