3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[anemic]

MrWizard thanks for the suggestion to call supergen. I would like to add to this thread for the sake of posterity, that if you, like me, came here wondering how to, instead of should I do it, once you make up your mind you can call those guys with any questions and they will provide answers and product solutions that are not listed on their site. Also if you are thinking of ordering from amazon, call them first. Very pleasantly surprised!!!

[MrWizard]

i think you will need a 'spacer' between the carb and the manifold intake
use the spacer to create a vacuum port to attach hose to run the pump

i read somewhere that SuperGen was bring out an extended run system for the cpe inverter gensets, using a similar pump
maybe that would be adaptible to your needs

[anemic]

I am actually favoring a vacuum pulse mikuni type pump fed off a vacuum port in the cylinder head. I got that idea from this thread. If you have successfully used this pump to feed a Champion generator I would love to hear your success story. thanks. My two questions are: can you find an existing vacuum port and were you able to draw from your MH fuel tank (which can be quite a distance of fuel line removed from the generator). For about 1/3 GPH flowrate, I'd prefer not to run a pump that is designed to push 18 GPH. I think I'll get better fuel economy, spend less money, and increase reliability if I can make this work.

(has nobody installed a Chinese generator in an open motorhome generator "box?")

[anemic]

I need to upgrade my freshly removed Brand O 4000 and the Champ remote start 3000/4000 looks like the way to go.

? I don't have room for the gastank and I want to take advantage of the motorhome fuel line. Do I simply need a small facet fuel pump 1-4 psi and a 1 psi holley regulator? (I have not seen definite experience on that important aspect)

? My gen "box" is open to the weather, which killed the green monster, but I am developing the weather enclosure (allowing for plenty of air via screen) plus allowing open mesh for intake & cooling exhaust...will I need to add a fan? I don't have a weathertight enclosed box like a TT? The Champion has a fan, like the Emerald has a fan, doesn't it?

The green monster is obscenely loud & we've always hated it - even the little it worked. I would be surprised if the Champ would be louder. I'll pursue the silencing measures proposed in the thread. thanks.

[trumptman88]

Like many others I hadn't checked in here nor posted in ages. I'd just like to add that I recently pulled out my Champion and the gas in it was quite old but the carb had been run dry with the valve off. I just wanted to get some work done on the trailer and perhaps burn off the old gas. I opened the valve, started it up and while I wouldn't expect a full 2800 watts out of that gas, it started and ran just fine.

We haven't used it much because we used to do lots of sand toys but gave them up. My Champion has been used in very harsh circumstances but still is running great. It's still even hard to get rid of all the old gas because it is so fuel efficient. Next batch will include some Stabil but for now Chevron gas didn't age too badly.

[David_Roseman]

Hope someone can answer a basic question for me on the attached wiring diagram from a 5 or 6 y/o Nikota 3500/3000w generator. Maybe even Prof. Agee will weigh in, as this relates to one of his earliest posts on this epic 8 y/o thread! 🙂

I use the genset for light-duty portability. It runs well, producing 240v at the NEMA L14-30 receptacle and 120v at the duplex receptacle. A 4P2T toggle switch selects the voltage between 240 and 120. The wiring to the L14-30 receptacle is straight forward, with the brown feed from the first phase (call it Phase 1) providing 120v on one terminal, and the blue wire from the other phase (Phase 2) feeding 120v to the opposite terminal. Since the feeds are 180 degrees out of phase, 240v is the result across those terminals. A few years ago, I added a neutral where there originally was none so I also have 120v from the L14-30 receptacle when needed, but that's the only mod that's been done.

So far so good. What has puzzled me is the way the 120v circuit is wired. As shown on the attached diagram, when the 4P2T is switched to 120v, the brown feed from Phase 1 connects to the hot side of the duplex receptacle, yet the blue feed from Phase 2 connects to the neutral side, on the opposite side of the receptacle. Surprising to me is that the jumper plates are fully intact on both sides of the receptacle. Question: Why doesn’t this yield 240v across the terminals of the duplex, just as it does with the L14-30 when the selector switch is set to 240v? And, even more basically, why doesn’t a ground fault occur due to the blue feed being connected directly to the neutral side of the duplex receptacle by virtue of the intact jumper plate?

Apologies if this has already be asked and answered somewhere in this thread. I did find a good post by Prof. Agee dated 3-16-05. Here's the link to that forum page.

http://www.rv.net/forum/Index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/15131645/srt/pa/print/true/pging/1/page/9.cfm

But the Nikota 3500/3000 wiring diagram in Prof. Agee's post is quite different from mine. It shows the leads from Phase 1 and Phase 2 both connecting to the hot side of the duplex receptacle, and the jumper cut on the hot side to produce two separate receptacles. That seems completely intuitive to me; mine not so much.

Here is a pic of my wiring diagram, if this link works:

http://s279.photobucket.com/user/dcroseman/media/Nikota%20genset/Nikotawiringdiagramresized9-24-13_zps6a8069b6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

David

[pianotuna]

Hi So,

I don't have a dmm with an analog scale--i.e. no "needle".

I do have a kill-a-watt (pre power factor). I observe no voltage drop at all with a 1500 watt load on the Yamaha 3000 iSEB. I do observe voltage drop on starting the air conditioner, especially in eco mode. I have seen 97 volts which concerns me.

My "habit" is to start the generator in non eco mode, then start the air conditioner, then switch to eco mode.

Would a "hard start" capacitor mitigate the voltage drop?

[So]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi So,

Does the extra boost occur any time the load is suddenly and dramatically increased--as it is when an air conditioner is turned on?

Good question, Don. I assume it depends on the size of the surge. I didn't think to simply tie a DMM to the battery while testing it. It was a customer's genny so I no longer have access to it.

Easy to do...

1. First, tie a DMM (w/analogue scale) to the battery and note the stable, unloaded voltage (genny running, warmed up, no loads)
2. Then start loading the unit with various known loads (with DMM still attached to the battery). I'd start with a 1500W space heater - turned on first, then plug it in the genny and see if battery voltage dips noticeably.

Assuming a max 500W surge boost (@ 120Vac), that's an estimated 38 amp momentary draw on the battery, @ 13Vdc. You'll likely see a 2-4v (maybe more) momentary drop. It could also be a variable boost, tapping the battery with only what is necessary to counter the surge. If that's the case, then you'll see a proportional but momentary decrease in battery voltage as the load is suddenly increased on the genny's 120Vac side.

[pianotuna]

Hi So,

Does the extra boost occur any time the load is suddenly and dramatically increased--as it is when an air conditioner is turned on?

So wrote:
I had the opportunity to play with Yamaha's 3000iSEB. Their 'boost' technology is to briefly pull surges directly from the on-board battery. Nifty idea, but there's a potential problem. Leave your 3000iSEB sit unattended in the garage for a few months causing the battery degrade,... and boost suddenly disappears.

-kenny-

[Wayne_Dohnal]

Measuring zoomed-in versions of the graphs with a ruler, the voltage drop with shore power is about 9 volts, and with the Onan about double that. I don't trust that info a whole lot however from the highly compressed display, and since the Onan waveform is closer to a triangle than a sine, extrapolating the RMS value from the peaks is iffy. I could have captured all of that info precisely but I didn't. The key thing for me is that with both sources the voltage droop is fully recovered in about 120 ms. which I consider excellent. Intuitively I believe with a similar-sized inverter generator the voltage droop wouldn't be as abrupt, might not be any deeper, but would last longer as the engine spins up. Even with "eco" off, the inverter genset isn't running at full RPMs, and it has less rotating mass to absorb the shock. The RPM comment obviously doesn't apply to the fixed speed inverter generators.

[So]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:
One statement in the linked thread "I know that an Otto Cycle engine is least efficient at low mean piston speeds. They use the so-called "Eco Throttle" on the inverter gens to idle them down, and this is supposed to save fuel." shows a possible basic misunderstanding of how inverter generators work. When the eu2000i, for instance, is idling it may sound like 500 RPM but its idle speed is actually 3,000 RPM, darn close to that more-efficient 3,600 RPM, and the RPMs only go up from there into even more efficient territory.

Actually, the highest BSFC (fuel efficiency) is typically achieved at or near peak torque at WOT (wide open throttle). On the Honda GX200, that's close to 2500 RPM. Above or below with partial throttle openings and BSFC drops, due to poor volumetric efficiency.

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Wayne,

Is the "sneeze" there with eco switch on (i.e. fuel saving enabled)? Any idea of the voltage drop during the "sneeze"?

That's one reason I chose the Yamaha 3000 iSEB--hoping that the 500 watt boost would be better on "sneeze" (and on voltage drop, too).

I had the opportunity to play with Yamaha's 3000iSEB. Their 'boost' technology is to briefly pull surges directly from the on-board battery. Nifty idea, but there's a potential problem. Leave your 3000iSEB sit unattended in the garage for a few months causing the battery degrade,... and boost suddenly disappears.

-kenny-

[pianotuna]

Hi Wayne,

Wonderful graphs. Thank you for posting them. Unfortunately I am not smart enough to read them. 😞

What is the voltage drop on the shore power? And on the generator?

[Wayne_Dohnal]

Don, I don't have a big enough inverter generator to give details of the sneeze. I can offer the following startup comparisons of a very strong shore power connection vs. the Onan, shore power first:





Even though this is a "big picture" shot there are a few details that can be gleaned. Notice how the sampled waveform is so much smoother with the shore power. That's because of the "kinda sorta" sine wave output of a small AVR generator. An inverter generator picture would be closer to the shore power picture. Also, even though the RMS voltage is the same for both, the Onan's peak voltage is higher due to the imperfect waveform, and also the RMS current is 22% higher. I conclude from this that without the good sine wave expected from an inverter generator, the air conditioner could draw 22% more power. But I'm digressing. The Onan's voltage drop looks really good, and the initial surge clears just as fast as it does on shore power.

[pianotuna]

Hi Wayne,

Is the "sneeze" there with eco switch on (i.e. fuel saving enabled)? Any idea of the voltage drop during the "sneeze"?

That's one reason I chose the Yamaha 3000 iSEB--hoping that the 500 watt boost would be better on "sneeze" (and on voltage drop, too).

Wayne Dohnal wrote:
Don, no argument about the 3,600 watt inverter gen handling the air conditioner startup. I have to resort to more technical terminology. IMO, the inverter generator "sneezes", while the Onan has an almost inaudible "slight hiccup" :-). I'm a huge fan on inverter generators to the point that that's all I'd ever want to have, but I also want to be objective. I find the Onan handling of the air conditioner startup truly impressive.

[pianotuna]

Hi So,

The Lifan is still not 3600 watts. 3500 surge and 3300 watts continuous.