Autoformer

[rfsod48]

What would be the proper sequence of using an Autoformer and a surge protector from coach to post?

[rfsod48]

I totally agree I don't want to have to replace things. My expertise is not engineering thus all my questions. I think my first purchase will be a surge protector and a voltage meter. If at that point I see I am encountering low voltage problems I will get on Autoformer.
Thanks for your expertise

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Do I believe in these things? My rig and umbilical house here has a 3Kw Sola ferroresonant line regulator coupled to a 107 lb full isolation transformer.

Lightning protection is provided by a pair of copper bars paralleled .125" apart with a 1-watt 100k resistor connecting the two. The phase is connected to the service drop L1 and the other to earth ground. This provides an enticing ionization path. Only 10-AWG is needed. Everything is soldered together. Lightning steers by ionization feeder leads milliseconds before the main pulse. This circuit has proven itself multiple strike diversions in the high Sierras. The diversion circuits were vaporized.

I can state for a fact my circuits allow sensitive electronics a lot longer lifespan. Some may sneer at a $200 cost for a microwave oven. My microwave costs $600 and I do not have the money to replace it bearing an arrogant attitude. Same for all my electronics.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

TRIPP LITE, HUGHES AUTO FORMER, BELKEN for starters. An autoformer whose name was obliterated. About ten or so of the above brands PLUS many other brands whose names did not register. Then I gave up. You gotta brand-name up your sleeve or what?

[TechWriter]

TechWriter wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I found through actual disassembly and looking very few "Surge Protectors" are worth a plugged-nickel.

Which ones did you disassemble?

One more time . . .

Which ones did you dissemble?

[wa8yxm]

I will try to make it simple.. Many devices called SURGE PROTECTORS are spile suppressors.. A genuine surge (Been there) they sound a lot like firecrackers on Independence day. As I said.. Been there.

Surge Guards or Energy Monitors like the Progressive Industries HW-50-C or PT-30C (you may swap HW and PT on both models) monitor the voltage, if it goes too high or too low. they cut you off, If you plug one into 240 volts where it should be 120 (Common when plugging into 30 amps) you can burn up your electronics (This is a SURGE) they will refuse to connect you (less you override them) In short they WILL protect you against many common issues.

Now.. The autoformer: It tries to compensate for low voltage (And in one case high) BUT it has limits.... I have seen campgrounds where the voltage went so low as to TEST those limits.

Thus Park---Autoformer---Surge Guard----RV is your best hookup.

HOWEVER... NOTHING is 100% A very sudden high speed spike (Read that lightening strike) can blast past everything and nail you.

Where I am we seem to have an issue with power flickers..This is where power goes out for like 1 second then come back on. If this happens when the A/C is on the compressors are trying to re-start with a full head of pressure.. NOT GOOD.. So the Surge Guard holds power off for nearly 3 full minutes and a second timer holds the A/C compressor off for a bit longer.. By that time (By the time the compressor re-starts) the pressure has bleed off so it's a normal re-start. And that.. Since parking here I have had it happen 3 or 4 times.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

rfsod48 wrote:
This is getting very confusing to me. Are there any electrical engineers on the member list who might be able give data proven advise? To surge protect or not, to Autoformer or not?

Three issues

Voltage control

Bad wiring protection

Damaging electrical spikes

Using an autoformer is a very good idea but many misunderstand and believe autoformers are the ultimate in protection. They by themselves are NOT. Transient voltage protection is also vital.

Go ahead and get your autoformer. And yes, I am an electrical engineer a documented MEE. And cranky as hell. I am trying to educate folks and quash folklore myths.

Something to chew on. THE FAILURE RATE OF PORTABLE ELECTRONICS IS MUCH HIGHER IN A RIG THAN FOR THE SAME APPLIANCE IN A HOME e en when using voltage correction devices. This is especially true of rigs that stay in RV parks or public campgrounds. There are reasons why...

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The Hughs were crumbly toast but they are autotransformers. A surge protector is a strip or box that has receptacles on it. Gas tube discharge devices are discrete as are TVS suppressors. Theyare not expensive. I have a 50 dollar strip surge protector gift that I took apart and it has a lousy 4 MOVS inside. Oh yeah and a nickle sticker bragging about a fifty thousand dollar insurance guarantee.

In the early 2000's I spent several days in a Mazatlan RV Park that had a couple dozen rigs with their ACs cycling. The sine wave on my Tektronix looked likeca relief silhouette of the Rocky Mountains. Spikes to 550 volts.

MOVS react too slowly to be of much use. An isolation transformer works best but coupling TVS with gas tube discharge components worked about several dozen times better than straight MOVs. When anything hit 190 volts peak-to-peak it gets CLAMPED. An autoformer transformer by itself offers 0.000% TVS protection as one leg is NOT isolated.

A DC fed 3.0 Kw UPS of course would offer the ultimate transient and voltage protection.

GOOGLE if you wish
Surge protector MOV TVS gas tube discharge
And follow the links.

[pianotuna]

rfsod48,

If you have a 30 amp service, surge protection is less important.

If you have a 50 amp service, an open neutral can fry everything in your RV. Progressive Dynamics top of the line would be my choice.

Far more items are damaged by brown outs than by surges.

For the best protection, be "off the grid" and go large solar. Probably you have to give up air conditioning.

For second best, use an autoformer followed by a top of the line surge unit. Again Progressive because of their life time warranty.

You should check the power source before you plug in, not afterwards, even if you do have protection.

Here is what would do:

1. check voltage under load (both legs if 50 amp)
2. check polarity
If that passes then
3. plug in surge device
If the surge device gives a "green light"
4. unplug surge and plug in the autoformer
5. plug surge device into the autoformer.

[rfsod48]

This is getting very confusing to me. Are there any electrical engineers on the member list who might be able give data proven advise? To surge protect or not, to Autoformer or not?

[TechWriter]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I found through actual disassembly and looking very few "Surge Protectors" are worth a plugged-nickel.

Which ones did you disassemble?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I found through actual disassembly and looking very few "Surge Protectors" are worth a plugged-nickel.

THERE ARE Z-E-R-O DEFINITIONS OF "SURGE PROTECTOR" THAR PROTECT YOU THE CONSUMER! NONE! NADA!

Some have one single tiny metal oxide varistor that wouldn't protect a Steinway piano from a chimpmunk fart, fifty feet away. When on-line the "protection" these con-artist products afford cannot be seen on an oscilloscope.

I notice that some companies like Tripp- lite gave joule ratings as if a joule rating is the last word in transient protection definition. That would be like advertising the specifications for an RV battery by giving forth only Reserve Capacity.

A decent Surge Protector would have a 25K joule pack of varistors wired phase to neutral, phase to earth, and neutral to earth...

THEN

Gas tube disharge devices (2) wired phase to neutal and phase to earth.

PLUS

Bi-directional TVS transient voltage suppressors. Avalanche rectifiers
Phase to neutral and phase to earth.

Not as good of cleaning-up as an isolation transformer but it's light-years better than the huckster garbage I see on the market.

But a handful of MOVs by themselves don't cut it. MOVs do a specific job and that's it and that isgrossly inadequate.

Why don't you write one of the stepped autotransformer companies and ask them if they use gas discharge devices or avalanche TVS devices in their products? I'd love to hear their full-of-BS replies.

[TechWriter]

Lynnmor wrote:
Some autoformers have built in spike and surge protection. I don't know how effective they are, but I see no need to add a surge protector ahead of the auto former.

Frank's Voltage Booster doesn't say anything about spike or fault protection.

The Hughes Autoformer Manual says it will protect from "various spikes and surges" -- but, like Frank's, it says nothing about protection from electrical faults, like an open neutral.

PowerMaster says it "Protects all of your electronic devices against spikes and surges up to a direct lightning strike". Hubba hubba.

TRC's Voltage Regulators do not protect against spike and surges, but are open neutral "tolerant" (i.e., an open neutral won't fry the regulator).

Lynnmor wrote:

Adding a surge protector after an autoformer that has protection may not help much. I have read that you should not stack surge protectors in this manner.

I think as you can see from above NONE of the autoformers/voltage regulators above offer any electrical fault protection, except TRC's which is just for an open neutral.

I went with TRC's "solution" which was an expensive 50A fault indicator ("indicator" not protector) + 50A Voltage Regulator + 50A Surge Guard Fault Protector.

[2oldman]

NinerBikes wrote:
I don't worry about surge or spike protectors with my Honda Eu2000i generator while dry camping. Should I be worried?

Until it gets hit by lightning, no.

[Lynnmor]

wa8yxm wrote:

Lynnmor wrote:
Some autoformers have built in spike and surge protection.

Spike protection yes
Surge.. I have never seen one with Surge protection.. Just Spike.

That said there is ONE autoformr that can buck overvoltage (Surges) as well as boost under voltage (Brownout) I can never remember the brand..But a surge protector AFTER it is still a good idea since on both BOOST and BUCK..It has limits and I have seen campgrounds that test those limits.

I don't know how great the performance is, but this is what I got from the Hughes website:

Experience performance and reliability with The Hughes Autoformer RV2130. 30 amp Low Voltage boosting transformer.

Hughes Autoformers are the only U.S patented Voltage boosting solution available today. All others are imitations.

• 30 Amp – 3,600 Watts capacity
• Fully automatic 10% boost when needed
• Park power diagnostic light
• Boost indicator light
• Spike and surge protection
• Size: 12”H x 5 ½“ W x 5½” D
• Weight: 21 Lbs.
• Two-year limited warranty
• Made in U.S.A.

[AllegroD]

mlts22 wrote:
I have wondered about getting a cheapie surge protector between the pedestal and the autoformer just for something to eat a spike or surge, but doesn't bother with low voltage shutoff.

This will work if you want cheap coverage. My appliances cost to much to replace to trust to cheapo. Progressive Industries for me.

Executive wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
pedestal, autoformer, surge, rv

This is how mine is set up....Dennis

Ditto.