Bent frame and suspension issue

[WileyCoyote214]

Long story short...

I have a Cyclone 5w Toy Hauler (1 year old and 11k mileage) that had a tire wear issue. Took it to the local authorized dealer/service shop for alignment who determined the suspension hangers were layed-over in different directions and binding. Also they noted the right frame I-beam was "bent" above both rear axles, in addition to having a cracked weld on the opposite side cross member. In their opinion it was a manufacturer defect and they also would be unable to repair the suspension due to the frame bending (description below). I took it up with Lippert and their reaction was to deny a problem.

After consulting 2 more QUALIFIED shops in the area and hiring a forensic engineering firm (Insurance Company)... the consensus was the same: Manufacturing Defect leading to suspension failure, leading to tire damage. Now Lippert agrees to look at it and they transport the coach to their factory.

HERE IS THE KICKER...

Lippert says the frame has no damage and that the "frame flexing" is "normal". In my case, if one puts a straight edge to the frame I-beam above the tandem rear axles, there is a "wave/bend" in it that measures up to 1/2" from trough to apex.

I have a hard time believing that they manufacture frames that are supposed to bend. In addition I have spoken with 2 authorized dealers, who have over 100 years combined experience in RV sales/service, only to hear that none of them know of any such "flex allowance" in the frame. There is a tolerance for a frame being out of square, however that is not the case with mine.

I have religiously weighed the RV to make sure it's not overloaded and still have the scale receipts. The coach has also not been in any type of collision/road hazard incident, nor has it been turned in excess of 75-80 degrees.

MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ALL:
- Have you heard of such frame damage from NORMAL use?

- Have you heard of an "allowance" for frames to bend/distort due to normal use?

Thank you for your advice and experience in advance!

[Huntindog]

OTOH... My LCI frame is the best one of any TT I have owned... Probably because Sabre specified a heavy duty frame, and LCI delivered.... But I also had LCI step up big time to resolve an axle issue. I wrote about here as it happened... Long story short, I believe that LCI is an ethical company that strives to do the right thing.... There were several ways they could have easily weasled on me.... But they stood up, admitted a mistake, and made it right.

I have and will continue to purchase and recommend their products.

[westend]

It's a sad commentary on how some folks count beans and could care less about the end user.

FWIW, I've operated in welding/fabrication universes where Govt. inspectors come when work is done with large carbon lamps and all welds are microscopically inspected. You can't even have a pit or piece of slag left, all welds are ground and polished. Also, fabricated a lot of marine stuff like rudders and similar where strength is needed. I know a small bit about welding.

My '71 Starcraft has a fully boxed frame. After 40 years of use, it pulls like an extension of the truck.

BTW, I saw the thread and pictures of Redracer's frame debacle and it was not nice. How something like that goes out the door of the plant is beyond me.

[myredracer]

Good to hear you eventually got a positive result, despite the arduous route.

We had an entire trailer replaced under warranty due to a bad frame. The spring hangers were significantly bent to one side and the frame had excessive flex in it. This was discovered the day after we got it new. The rear bobbed up and down like crazy when towing. The spring hangers swayed left-right like a pendulum in turns (I took a video of it). I even found a failed weld in the aluminum superstructure framing from the frame flex. Took a long time to get the replacement which came with a frame WAY stronger than the standard one. If there is ever a frame issue, a dealer contacts Lippert directly and not the RV manufacturer and you'll find yourself duking it out with Lippert. In our case Lippert came back and just blew us off (via dealer) by saying "it's within spec.". They typically blame the owner for overloading a trailer but in our case we only owned it a day so could not use that excuse on us.

We then went to a frame & axle shop that was a gov't certified facility. They said the frame was the worst they'd ever seen, and also that the welds were terrible and that there was no way it could be repaired/modified to make it like it should be in the first place. As a result of what they found, they condemned the frame. We submitted the report to the dealer, RV manufacturer AND Lippert. Shortly after that, the dealer told us we were getting a complete new unit.

Interestingly, nobody ever followed up with us to ask how it worked out and the manufacturer kept on using the same crappy frame on their trailers. I've since seen the same identical weak frame on a few other makes & models which makes me think it's simply a stock off the shelf frame and not a unique design by an RV manufacturer.

IMO, it's both Lippert's and the RV manufacturer's fault. The manufacturer does spec. the type of frame but Lippert as the builder is the expert on final design/engineering and constructing it. A contributing factor is that there are no industry standards like ANSI, SAE or similar and Lippert can build frames however they want and not have to answer to anyone.

If we were to ever buy another trailer, I'd only look at ones with a non-Lippert frame. LCI can talk all they want about quality assurance, certified welders or whatever but I don't think much will change. Unfortunately they have built a monopoly on frames. We've become hardened and cynical RV owners as a result of this and other issues we've been through.

[WileyCoyote214]

John&Joey wrote:
Lippert says the frame has no damage and that the "frame flexing" is "normal".

IMO, there is a huge difference in flex and bend. A flex returns to it's original shape. A bend does not and was not in the original engineered design specs.

Absolutely correct! Both the Forensic Engineer hired by the Insurance Co in 2012 as well as the LCI tech who was responsible for the repair at the dealer said the same. They also agreed that the cracks in the welds were mostly likely caused by the frame being "not true" (bent) above the suspension- which induced the slight but repetitive damaging sway while in motion. That sway was what eventually cracked the welds as well as damaged the tires. Eventually it led to the blowout...

[John_Joey]

Lippert says the frame has no damage and that the "frame flexing" is "normal".

IMO, there is a huge difference in flex and bend. A flex returns to it's original shape. A bend does not and was not in the original engineered design specs.

[dougrainer]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Oh my gosh. For almost fifty-five years I have abided by a rule that screams NEVER WELD A CHASSIS FRAME!

I have had to reinforce frames. I did it by sister-plating (fish plating) the area I wish to reinforce then drilling and hot riveting the overlay to the frame. Slightly chamfer the drilled holes.

1. LCI sends their Mobile crew to dealerships to fix/repair frame issues all the time. Especially slide out room problems caused by the frame flexing
2. HOW do they "straighten" the frame? The Techs are VERY SKILLED certified welders. They jack up the unit and flex it. They then take a Stick welder and use about 50 to 75 welder sticks and heat the frame using the welder sticks. This heat allows the frame to "warp" back to its correct camber. If needed they also will weld extra frame steel support tubes.
3. LCI does NOT make the frames to LCI's specs. LCI builds the frames to the RV makers engineering specs. So, if there is a inherent design weakness on a frame(not rigid enough), that is the OEM's fault. LCI fixes and then gets reimbursed by the OEM under the LCI and OEM frame warranty.
4. Yes, you will get an occasional bad weld, but the frame design is NOT LCI's fault.
5. Never weld a chassis frame??????? HOW do you think they mount Jack systems on motorhomes AND trailers?????????? Doug

[WileyCoyote214]

Apologies for the delayed response, but I just now came across this old link in my browser...

As mentioned in the OP, Lippert checked and spec'd the unit and put a single stiffener between the axle hangers, but did nothing to the frame. I got the unit back in late 2013 and used it normally until I suffered a rear curbside tire blowout in October of 2014. The blowout caused additional $12k worth of damage to the surrounding wheel well and sidewall.

The repair facility(dealership) agreement with the insurance company was to guarantee their repair to the degree that it should not happen again. Fortunately the shop correctly identified the cause of the damage as stemming from the bent frame (frame issue>layed up suspension>tire blowout>additional damage) and added the cost of a new frame (excess of $40k with labor) to the insurance claim. The insurance company had no choice on the "covered loss" and totaled the unit.

It was not a short process, however it was inevitable and much easier than going legal against Lippert. I am glad that the blowout was relatively benign and did not pose a safety hazard while on the road. I am also glad that I don't have to deal with the inferior product anymore.

[Brandon327]

Did you ever get this resolved?

[recycler]

Wiley your toy hauler sounds like it suffers from the usual undersized frames that i have seen on rv's..not to many shops will want the liability of fixing someone else's shoddy construction..in my opion fifth wheels/toy hualers/ travel trailers should have a frame comparable to a flat deck of similiar gvwr..as to the welding of heat treated and high tensile frame it can be done is just alot more drawn out process to prevent cracking..

[69_Avion]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I know about the big rig thing by all the decals I have seen over the years, but in my pickup frames, motor mounts and shock tower brackets were always riveted. Crossmembers were riveted or bolted. They never cracked. I guess times crack, I mean change.

Some pickup frames are totally riveted, some are welded and riveted. The box frames used on some pickups and Jeeps are usually formed in two pieces and then machine welded together. I imagine that riveting was easier and faster for them to do over the years. Remember, ships used to be riveted together and now they are welded. A36 steel can be easily welded by a competent welder.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I know about the big rig thing by all the decals I have seen over the years, but in my pickup frames, motor mounts and shock tower brackets were always riveted. Crossmembers were riveted or bolted. They never cracked. I guess times crack, I mean change.

[69_Avion]

You usually won't find high tensile steel frames on anything under a serious medium duty truck.

Most trailer and regular pickup truck frames are made out of A36 low carbon steel. They aren't built like heavy equipment trailers or semi trucks with high tensile steel.

Proper welding won't hurt A36 steel at all.

[KMLsquared]

Never weld a heat treated or hydro formed frame. Otherwise how did they build the frame that's welded?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Oh my gosh. For almost fifty-five years I have abided by a rule that screams NEVER WELD A CHASSIS FRAME!

I have had to reinforce frames. I did it by sister-plating (fish plating) the area I wish to reinforce then drilling and hot riveting the overlay to the frame. Slightly chamfer the drilled holes.