Disappointed in Disc Brakes

[lenr]

I admit, I choose that topic just to get your attention. It’s the actuator and its integration with the brake controller that leaves me disappointed. I’m very interested in hearing others’ experiences.

We had Kodiak disc brakes and a Dexter actuator installed on our new fifth wheel trailer. We’re using the integrated brake controller in our 2012 F-350. The disc brakes work so well (after break in) that I have to turn the gain down to 6.5 (out of 10) to keep the wheels from locking up on hard braking. With the gain turned down the Dexter actuator doesn’t start up until the brake controller is up to 40% on the dash bar graph. Then when it does start it’s into serious braking. So, the result is no help from the trailer on light braking and a big jerk once the brake petal is pressed into medium braking. The whole business is very disappointing, and has me wishing that I had just stuck with drum brakes.
1. Does anyone think that a different actuator would solve the problem? The Titan BrakeRite apparently has a lower start up voltage--but, it still is going to be up in the range a little, probably about 20 or 30% brake.
2. I’ve read that there is a time delay with disc brake actuators. What actuators are the fastest, in your experience? While I may be experiencing this also with the Dexter, the bigger problem seems to be not getting up to the turn on voltage.
3. Installing an after-market controller such as the Prodigy seems to be a catch-all answer. If you have found this to be a solution please explain why you think so, and how it works better.
4. What setups are you perfectly happy with: controller and actuator?
Thanks.

[lenr]

Thread arises from the dead again:
Apologies to howardwheeler--trailer weighs about 12,700, and Kodiak disc brakes rated at 6000 lb will skid the tires at 9 volts to the Titan BrakeRite actuator.

With a Prodigy P3 set at 8.0 maximum gain and a B3 initial boost setting, I've been having a lot of trouble with bumpy roads fooling the P3 into thinking that it has a lot of deceleration, and applying a lot of brake voltage (rumble strips at a stop sign bring on full braking on the trailer). I've reduced the max gain to 8.0 to avoid chirping the trailer tires when the truck hits a bump in the road while braking moderately. Also, I'm going to try B2 boost for a while. So far it seems like the trailer is a little behind the truck in braking but balance.

[howardwheeler]

Curiosity: how heavy is the trailer you’re towing?

[lenr]

Thread rises from the dead--Maybe Final, final post:
Ford IBC: from my reading the Ford IBC only reduces brake signal at speeds under about 10 mph for a less jerky stop. The manual lever never reduces out for vehicle speed. Research from owner manuals over several years seem to indicate that the low, med, high aggressiveness setting showed up in the 2015 trucks. Ford makes a replacement IBC module that has an "improved" part number. Research with a Ford Service department indicated that installing the improved part would still not add the aggressiveness setting that I so desired. I really wanted to find a solution that would react to the amount of brake petal push, but finally gave up.
Prodigy P3 report: so I finally decided to try the P3. I could use the Prodigy adapter cable for a smooth plug in but I would need to have a Ford Service department deprogram the computer so it wouldn't through an error message for a missing IBC. So, I decided to manually install the P3 parallel to the IBC. I had to run all 4 wires to the sources and tap into the correct brake petal wire. Since I have the inside bed trailer wire connector in addition to the typical one mounted at the bumper, I split the brake control wire between the too connectors with the bed side to the P3. I now have two complete trailer brake systems that work depending on which connector that I plug into. Measuring the IBC max voltage back to the trailer (set just below tire skidding), I set the P3 gain to match. I found that the B1 boost setting would turn on the actuator at the slightest petal push--what I've been looking for! On the first test drive yesterday, I found the B3 highest boost gave the best balance between truck and trailer. It is not as smooth as IBC, but the more aggressive braking at a low petal actuation is also what I was looking for--this is the best solution that I've tried. And, I feel that I'm going to have the best emergency braking from this setup. Maybe someday I can afford the $70,000 fix--a new truck.
Bonus: I have a backup brake controller in the IBC if something goes wrong with my P3 installation.
Anyone interested in installation specifics may shoot me a private email.
Thanks for all the help along the way.

[Planning]

lenr wrote:
Trip report:>
The Titan actuator is smooth and strong. The pairing with the Ford IBC is very adequate. The combination will definitely stop the combined rig... Although it is a tad light on light braking, it does come on pretty quick, and is fairly well matched to the truck.

I am glad you were able to resolve this. I do not remember where I read it, but I seem to recall that tow vehicle speed is a factor (within the brake controller algorithm) for output to the actuator.
IOW, "faster equals more".

Thanks for closing the circle on the thread.

[Learjet]

no issues with my Ram in the EOH mode and the Titan Brake pump

[Cummins12V98]

eHoefler wrote:
On that year Ford truck, you need an adaptor to use the factory brake contoller for electric/hydralic brakes.

https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Titan/T4846000.html

Correct answer, it's the truck not the RV.

[lenr]

The thread lives--maybe all this will help someone, someday. After returning the defective Ford/Chevy adapter, I purchased one from a different source to avoid problems from a manufacturing batch. The new one tested fine with a meter and works fine after installation. Its main job is to provide load to fool brake controllers that don't have a hydraulic setting. However, especially desirable for Fords (don't know about Chevys) is a secondary effect of draining off the short voltage spike that Ford uses to ping the trailer to see if it is still there. Without something connected the Titan actuator makes a clicking sound that "Randy" said doesn't hurt a thing. When I added a couple of brake magnets, the noise reduced by half. When I removed the magnets and added the working Ford/Chevy Adapter the noise completely went away. So, a Titan hydraulic actuator is the best one for an RV IMHO, but one definitely needs to install the Ford/Chevy adapter on ALL Fords (and maybe others as well.)

The experience with the Ford built in brake controller and the Titan actuator is satisfactory. However, at some point I will likely try a P3 (since I don't have the Ford aggressive setting) to see if I can get a better balance between truck and trailer on light braking. Thanks to all for the input.

[Groover]

I am glad to here that you seem to be where you want to be with the brakes. I just purchased a utility trailer with hydraulic over electric brakes and have only towed it empty. After I get it loaded I may be going back and reading some of these posts more carefully if I have issues.

[lenr]

Trip report:>
We made a 550 mile trip--mostly Interstate but enough stopping to test the new Titan Actuator. The Titan actuator is smooth and strong. The pairing with the Ford IBC is very adequate. The combination will definitely stop the combined rig. Having the Ford aggressiveness adjustment (or a Prodigy P3) would allow me to tune the combination a little better, but it is just fine the way it is. Although it is a tad light on light braking, it does come on pretty quick, and is fairly well matched to the truck.

[lenr]

Final report—maybe. Warning—long!
The Titan BrakeRite EHB was installed last Thursday. It is definitely smoother in its operation (than the Dexter actuator was). Voltage check in the driveway confirms why. The Titan starts running with as little as 1 volt on the control line. So it starts pumping on light braking from the truck, and then ramps on up. Also, the Titan is a 1500 psi actuator compared to 1600 from the Dexter. That allowed me to change the gain on the truck controller from 6.0 to 7.0 without wheel lockup. That in turn will cause the truck controller to output just a little more voltage on light braking getting the actuator turned on just a bit sooner and smoother. Despite the lack of the aggressiveness setting in my truck, it seems like the Titan turns on at a low enough voltage that it may be fine with the Ford IBC eliminating the need for an after market controller. We start a trip soon, and we’ll see how it feels after some miles.

Issues along the way:
It seemed like everyone (and his brother) recommended using the Titan Ford/Chevy adapter with the adage that it wouldn’t hurt if you don’t need it, and it may help. In addition, Titan documentation seems to indicate that it is needed on Fords after 2006 ½. So, the adapter arrived, and I installed it on Saturday. Next time I tried the truck IBC, it threw a wiring fault. When I checked the adapter, it measured less than .2 ohms regardless of the polarity of the meter. That’s a short circuit, so out it came. Not wanting to start a long trip with any chance of problems, I bought 2 drum brake magnets and wired them in. The actuator cranks up fine at this point—road test tomorrow.

A second issue is that the Titan makes noise and clicks about every 3 seconds. This is, no doubt, the Ford IBC pinging the trailer to see if it is still connected. The noise changed and got quieter after I installed the magnets. In fact, it is currently so quiet that some folks might not notice it on their trailers. However, it concerns me that it will put premature wear on the actuator. At the time I discovered this, I wondered if a properly functioning adapter would have drained off enough current flow from the ping to stop the actuator from clicking. Further research will be needed including getting specs from Titan engineering, and getting a scope on the brake control line to measure the ping (don’t have a scope yet.) However, see additional information in the paragraph below.

Rant:
On three prior occasions, I spoke with a fellow (name omitted to protect the ??) at Titan Customer Service and Warranty. This fella was unable to answer any tough questions like “how can I test the Ford/Chevy adapter to confirm that it is defective?” He wanted to blame the actuator noise on a defective Ford IBC (just put in a P3 and everything will be fine). Today this guy left work early—lucky me. And, I was referred to another person (Randy) who was very knowledgeable. This individual confirmed that the adapter was defective. In addition, he stated that the small noise from the actuator would be no problem. He also stated that a properly functioning Ford/Chevy adapter would have drained off the current from the ping, and thus the actuator wouldn’t be clicking.

[Planning]

lenr wrote:
I’ll post results after installation.

Any good news on your project?

[Planning]

I am rooting for your success with this. Also, ensure really good bleeding of all of your calipers. E/H disc systems are very sensitive to air in the lines, and the first symptom is increased lag time from stepping on the brakes until trailer brakes actually produce brake effort.

If I had thought of it the last time I had mine worked on, I would have had Earl's Solo bleeders installed.

Also, be careful of the length of the installation bolts that you use. Too long and they will penetrate the base housing. I don’t remember the specified length, but there is at least one video that speaks to the issue on YouTube.

[lenr]

A Titan BrakeRite actuator will be installed next Thursday replacing the Dexter unit. The folks at Titan confirmed that their initial voltage for turn on is less than one volt—much less than the stated 3 volts for Dexter. The trailer dealer that I’m switching to called his contact at Dexter technical who confirmed that the higher turn on voltage is probably the root cause of my problems. I also noticed that the wire gauge requirement for the control line for the Titan is smaller than the Dexter. That tells me that the amperage draw by the Titan from the truck controller is lower than the Dexter—that’s good. I’ll also be using the Ford/Chevy adapter since Titan recommends it and the success stories seem to use it. Big thanks to Planning for posting the price at Eastern Marine—ground delivery in 3 days for $20. By the way the price match at ETrailer is more of a stall technique than anything else. I’ll post results after installation.

[lenr]

Sure wish I had TBC Effort--it sounds like it is just what I need. But, I don't have it. I'm going to check with a dealer to see if there is an upgrade available. Thanks for that informative post.