Lithium Batteries

[09FLSTC]

How long before they are mainstream like AGM in RVs? Seems AGM finally got a fair shake for their great performance but was a little skeptical at first until I tried them. Now thinking Its just a matter of time for Lithium.

[mena661]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi mena,

No, it lists that information on the wobbly wide website. I can't understand why their prices are so much lower than other places.

They're cheaper because it's just the bare cells. No BMS or anything. There is some preparation (cell balancing, strapping the cells together to prevent bulging) involved before using bare cells.

[KJINTF]

PT

Good see you might take the leap
Kind of the reason I posted that link - good product and good prices

Mena

Can do - Currently getting as much as 16Vdc (yes that's too much for LFP, but ok for top charge of FLA for a short duration) Easy zero cost and very quick mod

[pianotuna]

Hi mena,

No, it lists that information on the wobbly wide website. I can't understand why their prices are so much lower than other places.

mena661 wrote:
This is good info PT, did you email them to get this info?

[mena661]

KJINTF wrote:
Just a thought.....

Maybe those "trash talked" constant voltage aka single stage WFCO and Parallax converters could be of some use along with a good BMS .....easy enough to change the output voltage as needed

I have 10 or 15 or more of them around here

If you could crank the voltage up on them they should work just fine. And keep us informed on your LFP bank. There's quite a few of us that are VERY interested.

[mena661]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Landyacht,

For $500 you can do 4 of these: 100 amp-hours 4 needed

They will "make them up" so a 200 amp-hour battery is $1000.00 Six weeks lead time are needed. Since 160 amp-hours are useable this is competitive price wise with a 320 amp-hour AGM bank.

Here is their entire line up:

all LI Note the 90 amp-hour 12 volt is $470.00

This is good info PT, did you email them to get this info?

[KJINTF]

Just a thought.....

Maybe those "trash talked" constant voltage aka single stage WFCO and Parallax converters could be of some use along with a good BMS .....easy enough to change the output voltage as needed

I have 10 or 15 or more of them around here

[mena661]

NinerBikes wrote:

My biggest concern is how best to recharge them, so as to not do damage, with a solar panel/ charge controller configuration that is OK and plays well with Li technology batteries.

A good Battery Management System is required and will keep you from damaging the batteries.

[KJINTF]

Still determining exactly which LFP batteries will go in my rig
The goal is for them to be installed and fully operational this winter

More toys to play with

Charging should not be much of an issue for me
The TS-MPPT-60 is programmable/configurable even better MS is willing to help with new firmware (better them develop it than me) to match the wants/needs/desires of the LFP power source. Isolated the engine alternator, and have modified a few converters to better match the LFP needs. Still need to check on the Prosine 2 inverter/charger charging setup. Waiting on the battery bank..... ........... Not much else to tell at this time

Love my winter play time

Been playing with my friends home made electric car he has 96Vdc system with about 15Kw LFP power source with a nice home developed BMS. Been installed and operational for less than a year now. Electric car demands are vastly different from what I expect my rigs power requirements to be. Learning lots and having fun playing anyway

[NinerBikes]

KJINTF wrote:
Mena has it right
"LI in RVs is still in its infant stage. You can buy ready made stuff but it's really expensive. DIY is cheaper but you need to research and be comfortable in what you know."

My take it depends on YOU individually

Remember when you ended up with a better, lower cost computer if you built it yourself? For some of us this stage of Li Battery development is just about the same thing. It's a wonderful time to play with new technology while learning new things. Like a kid with a new toy. A perfect fit for me

Well dammit KJ, if you're gonna play, at least share some blow by blow experiences with these lithium contraptions, in a timely manner.

My biggest concern is how best to recharge them, so as to not do damage, with a solar panel/ charge controller configuration that is OK and plays well with Li technology batteries. Same story, still have the weakest sister and have to balance charge the cells to keep them all in line. Mexwanderer is gonna miss his dipping routine, and it may cut into the sales levels of Freas hydrometers.

All of these batteries, I guess, need to be BCM equipped for dummies like me. Cost of doing business and charging safely.

What do I look forward to the most from these batteries? You can get by with 50 to 60% of previous amp hour capacity in lead acid batteries, and they at that rate will be 1/6th the size and weight for comparable power consumption cycles. So 225 ah T105's will be covered by 120 AH in LiFePo, and probably thats an under 35 to 40 pound battery pack?

These batteries are NOT for the RV park refugees. Heavy hitter dry campers and full timers would tend to benefit the most, not the weekend warrior types. How many folks keep their rig 10 years, the life of these batteries, or 2000 charge cycles? That's 6 years of full time use.

[KJINTF]

Mena has it right
"LI in RVs is still in its infant stage. You can buy ready made stuff but it's really expensive. DIY is cheaper but you need to research and be comfortable in what you know."

My take it depends on YOU individually

Remember when you ended up with a better, lower cost computer if you built it yourself? For some of us this stage of Li Battery development is just about the same thing. It's a wonderful time to play with new technology while learning new things. Like a kid with a new toy. A perfect fit for me

PS - Forgot to mention the IP Camera development stage another wonderful tool/toy and a technology that's moving VERY fast. Always something to learn while playing with new technology

[wa8yxm]

You can get Lithium for your RV today if you wish.. OF course there is a question as to which will cost more,, The batteries,,, or the RV without the batteries.

Lithium still has a few issues to overcome before they are practical for RV use, one is the cost, another is something called thermal runaway. (They tend to catch fire if this happens).

That said, they do look promising.

[grizzzman]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Landyacht,

For $500 you can do 4 of these: 100 amp-hours 4 needed

They will "make them up" so a 200 amp-hour battery is $1000.00 Six weeks lead time are needed. Since 160 amp-hours are useable this is competitive price wise with a 320 amp-hour AGM bank.

Here is their entire line up:

all LI Note the 90 amp-hour 12 volt is $470.00

landyacht318 wrote:
Its dropping, but not quite an easy pill to swallow, yet.

Check out this "drop in" 100 AH in a group 31 jar:
http://store.starkpower.com/12V-100AhStarkPower-UltraEnergy-Lithium-Ion-Battery-LiFePO-Energy-Storag...

Imagine that. Needing to program the solar controller to turn off completely once the lithium batteries reach 14.6v., or stopping it well before that, as there is no need to get the thing to 100% daily.

I tend to cycle usually no more than 65 AH nightly and need a group 31 flooded Deep cycle that cost me 162$ with tax. I am hoping for 450 cycles from it, and am in the 330 range now.

If the 3000+ claimed cycle life of this lithium battery can be trusted, it'll be cheaper to get the lithium, and I'd have more AH to cycle safely.

Thats a pretty big IF.

Tell you what, I'll start a paypal account and take donations and be the guinea pig and post detailed results and cycle the urine out of it every day till it fails. 340 cycles a year.

Keep in mind that the way Lifep04 and lead asid batteries are rated are different. As an example a 200 amp hour lead asid battery could be replaced with a 100 amp hour Lifep04 battery.

[pianotuna]

Hi Landyacht,

For $500 you can do 4 of these: 100 amp-hours 4 needed

They will "make them up" so a 200 amp-hour battery is $1000.00 Six weeks lead time are needed. Since 160 amp-hours are useable this is competitive price wise with a 320 amp-hour AGM bank.

Here is their entire line up:

all LI Note the 90 amp-hour 12 volt is $470.00

landyacht318 wrote:
Its dropping, but not quite an easy pill to swallow, yet.

Check out this "drop in" 100 AH in a group 31 jar:
http://store.starkpower.com/12V-100AhStarkPower-UltraEnergy-Lithium-Ion-Battery-LiFePO-Energy-Storag...

Imagine that. Needing to program the solar controller to turn off completely once the lithium batteries reach 14.6v., or stopping it well before that, as there is no need to get the thing to 100% daily.

I tend to cycle usually no more than 65 AH nightly and need a group 31 flooded Deep cycle that cost me 162$ with tax. I am hoping for 450 cycles from it, and am in the 330 range now.

If the 3000+ claimed cycle life of this lithium battery can be trusted, it'll be cheaper to get the lithium, and I'd have more AH to cycle safely.

Thats a pretty big IF.

Tell you what, I'll start a paypal account and take donations and be the guinea pig and post detailed results and cycle the urine out of it every day till it fails. 340 cycles a year.

[grizzzman]

09FLSTC wrote:
How long before they are mainstream like AGM in RVs? Seems AGM finally got a fair shake for their great performance but was a little skeptical at first until I tried them. Now thinking Its just a matter of time for Lithium.

I think it will be a while. (6 to 8 years before it becomes mainstream) and that will depend on up and comming tech. I believe that Lifep04 prices will drop notably in the next two years. When this happens then you will see it start its "mainstream" climb. Personaly i have decided to wait for the prices to drop. However i chose my solar charge controller with this "future" mod in mind.